In this episode of the Akiona Law Podcast, Ululani “Lani” Akiona speaks with Aubrie De Clerck, an International Coaching Federation (ICF) certified coach, 18-year industry veteran, and the founder of Coaching for Clarity. Aubrie specializes in helping people navigate the “rough seas” of major life disruptions—including divorce, job layoffs, health milestones, and career changes. Known for her deeply practical yet highly inspirational approach, Aubrie explains how to find your footing when your life’s trajectory suddenly changes.
Episode Transcript
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Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Akiona Law Podcast, wherein we talk about anything and everything that intersects within the areas of family law and divorce.
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And today, I have with me
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Aubrie de Clerck.
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She is… okay, so let me tell you about Aubrie, and this is why I’m really excited to have her on today.
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is that she is a certified coach, certified by the International Coaching Federation, ICF,
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With her specialty being career coaching.
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Now, what she does…
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is that she helps people navigate
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Um, through life’s big changes.
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Uh, she also helps people, and big changes is not only just through career, it can be through things like divorce,
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Um, age milestones,
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health issues, as well as job changes or job layoffs.
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Now, Aubrie, uh, Aubrie has been doing this for 18 years,
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And through it, she is, um…
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And I’m sorry, she is known for being highly inspirational, as well as being deeply practical, with being able to have conversations that
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Cuts to the core of the matter.
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She is the owner and founder of Coaching for Clarity.
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Welcome, Aubrie!
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Thanks, Lani. Thanks for having me.
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So excited to have you on!
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Excited to be here. I’m excited for our conversation. You know, we’ve talked before and just really enjoy the flow of what we have conversations about. So looking forward to today.
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So, so coaching for clarity. So, tell me, like, what made you get into this?
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Uh-huh.
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Wow, I think that with a lot of times with big life changes, same for me, right? Some of it feels part accident. And then part of it feels really aligned and intentional.
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So, I mean, in that sense, like I was always, I mean, I went to school, got a degree in sociology. I’ve always been interested in people and phases of life
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Okay. Go ahead.
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And supporting people, and I thought I was gonna go into social work.
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Oh!
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Wow.
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Yeah, I really thought that’s the place I was going to go and I ended up coming out of school and having a corporate career and then working in nonprofit and getting closer and closer to working with people again. But I feel like in some ways I circled back to
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being of support at really crucial moments of people’s lives, which is something that’s always been inside, with some detours.
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Well, so… so tell us now, tell us about, um, like,
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I know that when people go through life changes,
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There’s, you know, there’s identity change,
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that happens with it.
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and a transition. So, can you… can you speak to that?
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Okay. Okay.
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Yeah, so the way I describe it a lot of times is like a mobile over a baby’s crib, right? With different parts of our lives. Like, let’s say, you know, there’s work, there’s our relationship, right? There’s family, there’s all sorts of different pieces of our lives. And if you pull on one of those things, many of those things also move
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Right.
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Right? So if somebody’s going through job loss, that can affect the family and the relationship. It can affect our sense of identity and sense of self. So there’s a number of things where it can’t really be all separated out. So that’s one way of thinking of when people are going through these kinds of changes in like a divorce especially
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Right
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who they are in life is changing what you… I mean, people aren’t
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This isn’t what they thought they were going to be
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Right.
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I think a lot of people, most people enter into the marriage. Me and my own marriage and other people that I work with thinking like, this is it, right? Like the plan is that we’re going to be together, we’re going to create this life together. And so
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The fact that it’s
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Your trajectory looks different
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Right.
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who you are in the world is going to be different. Your relationship, if you have children might change to your family members might change. Some people need to go to work some in a different way other people have to stay with work that they thought that maybe they were done with.
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That there’s a lot of parts of our lives that change all geography might have to change.
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So, when people are going through that kind of disruption to their lives and their experience, it can feel like really rough seas, like a rough
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being in the ocean when it’s really choppy.
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Yeah, no, that’s a really good visual, rough seas.
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Yeah
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No one likes to be in rough seas. It’s uncertain.
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Yeah.
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Right.
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Totally uncertain, and human beings in general don’t really like things to be uncertain. We’d really rather know what’s going to happen. But these types of changes in life, it’s so much is unknown
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And part of the process is to, you know, put that anchor down. So in that moment, you know, it’s not the best time sometimes to chart your whole path if the sea’s choppy and you can’t see very far ahead of you in a storm.
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So part of this is to like really drop the anchor down and figure out what’s where you are right now
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Right.
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What’s happening right now, then when things are a little calmer.
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Then start thinking about where am I… what am I looking to?
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Because then that’s when some possibility happens, but you need to have the anchor down for a little bit in order to
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Feel more secure
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Okay.
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More connected to oneself to make those kinds of decisions and choices.
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So, how long… so… so say, for example, if someone is
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going through a divorce, how…
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How long…
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Would you be working with that person? Is there, like, a… I guess I’m just trying to figure out, is there a certain timeline, like…
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3 sessions, 5 sessions, it just depends, I bet.
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Yeah.
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It depends, and the same… and at the same time
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Yeah…
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When people are in pain, the last thing you want to hear on the other end is like, this thing takes time. It’s different for everyone, right? Like, that’s not super helpful a lot of times. I know that when I’m in pain, I really don’t want to hear, like, well, we don’t really know how long it’s going to last
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Yeah.
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So usually, I recommend that people that we work together for 90 days
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Oh, okay.
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to start out, because what’s interesting to me about the 90-day timeframe is that it’s enough to know that we have a little some spaciousness in the time what we’re going to talk about
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The other thing that tends to happen is people are in spots where things are shifting and changing around them.
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Yeah.
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And so we want to allow for that to happen without having to say, okay, well, it’s going to take six months. Oftentimes, people come and something’s changed already within the first two to three weeks
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Right.
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And so I want to have that space to say like, okay, where are we going? Right? We need to figure this out. And
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It’s 90 days at a time is about what
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People can take in
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I think during those types of times.
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So, practically speaking, are people meeting with you every week during those 90 days, or as… okay.
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Yeah, okay.
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Yeah, for me, it’s every week. I know that some coaches do every two weeks.
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And maybe they go longer, right? So it ends up being the same amount of sessions for 6 months. But for me, when I’m working with folks at these times during big life change times, having that consistency
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can be really helpful and important because things are changing a lot. The other thing about that is, is it gives them flexibility, because a lot of times I’m not sure how your experience, Lani, what this is, is that things can come up
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Right.
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And if they miss a time or we have to change the time, like for me, it’s no problem, right? We can change the time. We can reschedule it to later that week or whatever. But if we’re on an every two week schedule
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And we miss one time. I mean, I’m only touching base with that person once a month.
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And that tends to not be enough during a transition time like this.
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What is the…
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So, when you help someone,
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Who’s going to transition?
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Yeah.
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of a divorce.
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Um…
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Is there any certain recurrent themes that you see come up?
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Hmm, well, I mean, the recurrent emotions, but those may just feel obvious, right? In terms of what people are going through. But I mean, it can be a variety of things, right? There’s a lot of fear, survival fear.
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Okay.
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Especially when working with people around their work lives, right?
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Right.
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How am I going to support myself? If they have a family, how am I going to support my family? Am I going to get back into the workforce? Right? What does it even look like to do that?
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Right.
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Sometimes some numbness, confusion.
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Frustration, resistance is a big one.
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Resistance.
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I don’t… I don’t want this thing this to be the way it is
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Oh, okay.
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That’s there a lot, which is normal.
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And that’s that was also welcome in the work that we do, because
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There’s
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There’s also information in the resistance
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What about it is so hard, right?
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Yeah.
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getting to the core of that. And so those are some of the common feelings that folks have around it. Common themes are, to me, some of the biggest common themes boil down to confidence
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In connection to themselves. So there’s the identity piece.
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So, can… can you… can you go more into that?
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Yeah.
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Yeah. So what I’m finding with folks that I work with is that
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in their experience, they might have lost a certain part of themselves.
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Okay.
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Right.
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There’s all sorts of things in terms of marriage or partnership where we compromise, and I think it’s sort of normal in relationships and friendships and all those things, right? But there can be times when
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people will lose their connection to themselves. Wait a minute
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What did I want again?
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Right.
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Who am I again? What was… what are my goals for just me
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And that sense of connection can be… and losing that sense of connection can be really disorienting when trying to figure out what you want next.
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A lot of people, when they come from that spot.
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Don’t know
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If you ask straight on, like, what do you want? I don’t know.
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Yeah.
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I don’t know what I want right now. And
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One way of
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sorting through that is to remember who we are
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Now, we are different than who we were before take it in terms of divorce, right?
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Right.
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before being married, during marriage, after marriage
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But we’re not yet who we’re going to be post
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the transition yet
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Right.
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So I’m working with people in that space, right? Which is like, okay, I used to know what this was about for me and who I was, and my relationship with the world.
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I don’t have… I’m really off kilter right now, like, I’m not sure what that is or what I want, or who I’m becoming yet. And then there’s that spot where people are going into that stage of things are opening up, getting more connected, can see more of what’s happening. Maybe some synchronicities start to happen.
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That feel like their new path is opening.
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Okay.
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And so that’s what I mean about being connected to oneself is just in a phase of transformation.
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You know, that’s… that’s a good point to bring up, because in a marriage, you do tend to lose your own identity, because you are…
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you know, a husband, a wife,
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a mother or a father
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And your own individuality or needs and wants, they kind of get pushed down in service of the family.
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Yeah, it happens frequently.
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And I think that happens whether people are getting divorced or not. You know, there’s a lot of folks that get to age 40 or 50, which are, you know, really… you’re talking about age milestones, those are really common times, right? Like
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In the age 40s, there can be the sense of individuality and freedom
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Mm-hmm.
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and uniqueness and expression, right? That’s there. That’s like, oh, I want that
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You know
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Right.
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And then a lot of times in their 50s, people are at a place where they don’t have regrets
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Alright, time is limited.
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Oh…
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What is it that means has a real meaning and purpose and value for me?
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Great.
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So there’s times where even if someone’s not necessarily getting a divorce or ending their marriage, that there’s struggle around that sense of identity and who I’m becoming. And that’s a real
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Common processes unique to everyone. And just because it’s common doesn’t mean it’s not painful.
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Right.
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But you add on a layer of possibly shift in those time frames or even in someone’s 20s, a lot of times people in their late 20s are ready to commit to something, commit to a career, they want to commit to a person, or if it’s not working for them, they want to stop it, and they want to build who they are becoming as an adult
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For themselves. And so
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at those times, those things are naturally happening for people. And then, if you add in something like a divorce
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That adds another
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Right.
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you know an earthquake or a ripple or something, right? To an already existing experience, like you’re talking about, about like
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You know, being a parent or having an empty nest situation happen or whatever.
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Oh, that’s true, right? That’s even a… you could be married in a life transition that you’re going through is that…
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Here are my spouse and I. We’re in our mid-50s, late-50s, and we’re going to be empty nesters. What does that transition look like?
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Right.
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Yeah, what do we want for that? Are they taking care of their own parents at that time? So maybe there’s some sense of feeling like, okay, I’ve worked really hard and now I’m going to have this freedom and then
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Maybe there’s an illness in the family or it
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Or it can just also be like
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Wow, wonderful. And I want to make this feel like this. It’s all about terrible things happening in life. But
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You know, there can be, and that’s I think too, I mean, it’s things can be bittersweet. Being divorced can be bittersweet.
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Right
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In terms of what people find or how new lives begin.
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Right.
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After the divorce is done.
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Well, sometimes it can… getting divorced can lead to
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an awakening.
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Yes. Wow, wow, that’s awesome. Yeah.
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Yeah, totally. I know that that happened for me. Felt like it happened for me.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Well, that’s, um…
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And that’s something to realize, that it, again, it doesn’t… it doesn’t have to be the end. It can be an awakening.
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Are you able… do you mind sharing, like, how…
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You felt awakened, or to describe that process for yourself?
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Sure. I mean, I was
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The awakening part for me was
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I saw things more clearly than I had seen things in a long time
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Wow.
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Like that felt like the awakening part of it for me was like, oh, wow, it’s like, I, you know, it’s like there maybe have been a fog over the window and then you wipe it clear and you can see
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I didn’t love what I was seeing. It wasn’t like, you know, an awakening as far as, like, oh, rainbows, you know, and
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you know, music and all those things, but it was like, oh, wow.
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Did you?
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And looking at my part in it, I wrote a blog post on it. Yeah, I have a substack called Big Life Changes, and I wrote a post about it, about like
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When coming to that space of the realization of the reality in front of me, I was just like
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One, how did I get here? And then having some answers for that. Like, oh, I can see the patterns here.
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Wow.
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And in my own life and myself. And then to be in the sense of
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I remember somebody told me that when I started my business, they’re like, Aubrie, starting a business is the biggest personal growth experience you never asked for. And after 18 years, I’d be like, yeah, and it’s still happening. It’s a lot to have a business.
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But marriage is also a growth and divorce is also a growth like that. And so I feel like, would I rather have not
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had the awakening
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Yeah.
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In this particular way. Yeah, I would still love to be, I would love to be in a healthy marriage, you know. And there was a lot of love between my ex-husband and I, so
00:17:05.000 –> 00:17:10.000
Would I have loved it to not be so painful? Yeah.
00:17:10.000 –> 00:17:17.000
Am I really happy to be on the other side of that and what my life is about, what I know about myself
00:17:17.000 –> 00:17:21.000
How much easier I am in my own skin in terms of that kind of awakening
00:17:21.000 –> 00:17:23.000
100%.
00:17:23.000 –> 00:17:42.000
Yeah, I hear… I hear you on that, and I just… to me, doing a midlife awakening sounds so much better than a midlife crisis.
00:17:42.000 –> 00:17:43.000
Yeah. Wow.
00:17:43.000 –> 00:17:47.000
Right. And I think that’s, you know when I have teachers and do a lot of reading and I think it’s the place that it’s like, it’s midlife and it doesn’t have to be a crisis, right? Like it doesn’t it’s not automatically required to be a crisis. I think
00:17:47.000 –> 00:17:53.000
You know, depending on how people view different life phases
00:17:53.000 –> 00:18:00.000
that it’s natural to go through these places, like in the 4 days or the 50s to have these kinds of feelings, right? But we can
00:18:00.000 –> 00:18:03.000
Whether it becomes a crisis or not
00:18:03.000 –> 00:18:08.000
It doesn’t isn’t always optional, but how we handle it is optional.
00:18:08.000 –> 00:18:15.000
Right? I can have these feelings and be going through something, and not want, you know, not want this reality to be the way it is.
00:18:15.000 –> 00:18:18.000
But my response to that’s going to be
00:18:18.000 –> 00:18:23.000
Either helpful or unhelpful.
00:18:23.000 –> 00:18:24.000
I think
00:18:24.000 –> 00:18:25.000
Right. Thanks.
00:18:25.000 –> 00:18:32.000
So I’d rather, like you said, I’d rather have my response to it be like painful awakening, but I’m doing it.
00:18:32.000 –> 00:18:35.000
Well, through, um…
00:18:35.000 –> 00:18:39.000
Um, with pain comes growth.
00:18:39.000 –> 00:18:41.000
Unfortunately.
00:18:41.000 –> 00:18:51.000
Well, how is that for you when you’re working with people? Because you’re working with people on really, you know, tough, painful situations, and you see the, you know, you see the other side
00:18:51.000 –> 00:18:52.000
Yeah.
00:18:52.000 –> 00:18:55.000
Like, you get people through this really hard process.
00:18:55.000 –> 00:18:56.000
Right.
00:18:56.000 –> 00:19:00.000
Right? All the time. That’s what you’re doing
00:19:00.000 –> 00:19:09.000
to where so what do you tell people about it? Because you’re there, you know. I think there’s reasons why attorneys are called counselors, right? Like
00:19:09.000 –> 00:19:15.000
You’re part of that process for them. So how do you help people get through it?
00:19:15.000 –> 00:19:21.000
You know, it’s… it’s… I think sometimes it’s… it’s tough in the sense that a lot of times,
00:19:21.000 –> 00:19:26.000
for us as attorneys, it almost kind of feels like we’re triaging.
00:19:26.000 –> 00:19:32.000
We’re trying to meet that immediate need of…
00:19:32.000 –> 00:19:40.000
I am divorcing my spouse, and what is child support going to be? What is spousal support? What is a parenting plan
00:19:40.000 –> 00:19:47.000
going to look like, and it’s helping people in that really small snapshot of time.
00:19:47.000 –> 00:19:48.000
Yeah
00:19:48.000 –> 00:19:52.000
Uh, maybe a year or two years trying to help them figure out
00:19:52.000 –> 00:19:56.000
legally, what’s this new relationship going to look like?
00:19:56.000 –> 00:20:02.000
And I’ve… I’ve seen growth in the sense that when a client comes to me,
00:20:02.000 –> 00:20:05.000
And the… the…
00:20:05.000 –> 00:20:11.000
I can tell that, um… and again, it doesn’t matter whether or not you want the divorce,
00:20:11.000 –> 00:20:16.000
It’s still really difficult, especially if
00:20:16.000 –> 00:20:22.000
There’s a lot of heaviness that comes up with it, especially if the relationship was not a good relationship.
00:20:22.000 –> 00:20:28.000
And there’s a lot of fighting, and there’s a certain heaviness that my clients will come to me with.
00:20:28.000 –> 00:20:34.000
And it’s so nice to see, uh, towards the end, when things are settled,
00:20:34.000 –> 00:20:36.000
Um, or I may see them
00:20:36.000 –> 00:20:45.000
sometime after the divorce is finalized, that I can then see that shift in their appearance and in their face.
00:20:45.000 –> 00:20:48.000
the happiness, it’s as if a light
00:20:48.000 –> 00:20:50.000
is turned on inside.
00:20:50.000 –> 00:20:53.000
Um, when things are resolved.
00:20:53.000 –> 00:20:55.000
And that’s rewarding to see.
00:20:55.000 –> 00:21:00.000
And… just speaking for my… for my own experience,
00:21:00.000 –> 00:21:07.000
about how when I started my divorce proceedings, and I moved out of my home,
00:21:07.000 –> 00:21:16.000
September 20, 2024, and here it is 2 years later, still have yet to get my divorce finalized, but we will.
00:21:16.000 –> 00:21:19.000
Wasn’t easy! And, uh…
00:21:19.000 –> 00:21:25.000
And even though I was the one that wanted the divorce, man, I tell you, the grief…
00:21:25.000 –> 00:21:27.000
A, that just pops.
00:21:27.000 –> 00:21:28.000
Mmm…
00:21:28.000 –> 00:21:34.000
Um, from a 25-year relationship, and just the…
00:21:34.000 –> 00:21:42.000
Oh my goodness, just everything changes, and for me, what I was really grieving was a change in my relationship with my kids.
00:21:42.000 –> 00:21:43.000
Oh, yeah.
00:21:43.000 –> 00:21:46.000
And, you know, they were older, um,
00:21:46.000 –> 00:21:53.000
At the time, and I… the… my oldest had started college, and the youngest was a junior in high school, so they’re older, but…
00:21:53.000 –> 00:21:56.000
that still wasn’t… that wasn’t easy on them.
00:21:56.000 –> 00:21:57.000
Right.
00:21:57.000 –> 00:22:01.000
And it wasn’t easy on them because of the way that
00:22:01.000 –> 00:22:04.000
myself and my…
00:22:04.000 –> 00:22:09.000
My spouse, uh, the way that we showed up, the way that our behaviors were.
00:22:09.000 –> 00:22:12.000
And… that sucked.
00:22:12.000 –> 00:22:17.000
That sucked. It really just… it hurts everybody, and…
00:22:17.000 –> 00:22:20.000
Just gotta go… you just gotta go through it.
00:22:20.000 –> 00:22:21.000
Yeah.
00:22:21.000 –> 00:22:24.000
You know, and I just tried, especially my youngest, he was, um…
00:22:24.000 –> 00:22:34.000
my oldest was a little bit more insulated since he was at college, and he was away, but it was my youngest that was living in the family home with my spouse, and um…
00:22:34.000 –> 00:22:37.000
you know, he got to see…
00:22:37.000 –> 00:22:40.000
His father’s unfiltered emotions.
00:22:40.000 –> 00:22:44.000
And, um, that was tough.
00:22:44.000 –> 00:22:50.000
And I try to tell my youngest son, you know, you’re going to have a lot more resiliency,
00:22:50.000 –> 00:22:51.000
Hmm…
00:22:51.000 –> 00:22:57.000
And unfortunately, a lot of people are, you know, should have your age.
00:22:57.000 –> 00:23:00.000
So… trying to make something
00:23:00.000 –> 00:23:04.000
you know, that’s a positive spin on it.
00:23:04.000 –> 00:23:09.000
Right, and I think that you’re talking about the tough time, right?
00:23:09.000 –> 00:23:10.000
Yeah.
00:23:10.000 –> 00:23:18.000
that there’s another side to it doesn’t mean that we aren’t changed, doesn’t mean we’re going to, you know, think everything’s, you know, terrific, right? Or
00:23:18.000 –> 00:23:19.000
You know
00:23:19.000 –> 00:23:20.000
Yeah.
00:23:20.000 –> 00:23:21.000
It’s
00:23:21.000 –> 00:23:25.000
And at the same time, there’s things on the other side of that
00:23:25.000 –> 00:23:33.000
that we can’t maybe necessarily see right now, right? Like you’re talking to your son about. or when you talk about those people that have the lights back in their eyes right?
00:23:33.000 –> 00:23:34.000
Yeah.
00:23:34.000 –> 00:23:37.000
Right, that’s
00:23:37.000 –> 00:23:45.000
These kinds of life experiences and processes like they leave us changed.
00:23:45.000 –> 00:23:48.000
We hope that they get
00:23:48.000 –> 00:23:50.000
folded in right
00:23:50.000 –> 00:23:51.000
Yeah.
00:23:51.000 –> 00:23:55.000
to who we are in a sense of where we get to return to who we are
00:23:55.000 –> 00:24:00.000
But also bring in the new parts of who we are based on that situation.
00:24:00.000 –> 00:24:02.000
And then move forward from there.
00:24:02.000 –> 00:24:10.000
You know, exactly, and what you said really kind of resonates in the sense of, like, my identity. Like, who am I?
00:24:10.000 –> 00:24:11.000
Yeah. Right
00:24:11.000 –> 00:24:17.000
Who am I now? And there’s also, too, you mourn the loss of
00:24:17.000 –> 00:24:19.000
Yeah?
00:24:19.000 –> 00:24:20.000
Yes?
00:24:20.000 –> 00:24:24.000
your future. Because, you know, we have planned, Leonard, we’re going to be empty nesters, and we’re going to do all of this, this, and that,
00:24:24.000 –> 00:24:27.000
And, you know, I planned on spending a lifetime
00:24:27.000 –> 00:24:28.000
With this person,
00:24:28.000 –> 00:24:29.000
All right
00:24:29.000 –> 00:24:31.000
And, yeah, sure, that’s…
00:24:31.000 –> 00:24:41.000
There’s mourning and grief that comes with that, but also, at the same time, and like, who am I? Who am I now? Here I am two years later. I don’t know if I can really say whom I still now.
00:24:41.000 –> 00:24:44.000
I’m still trying to figure out what I want.
00:24:44.000 –> 00:24:45.000
Yeah.
00:24:45.000 –> 00:24:50.000
But, um, I do… I do know that I do feel a lot, a lot happier,
00:24:50.000 –> 00:24:55.000
And a lot lighter, and, you know, honestly, there’s a part of me that wishes
00:24:55.000 –> 00:24:58.000
I made the decision sooner.
00:24:58.000 –> 00:25:05.000
So that way, my spouse… because we were not the best versions of ourselves for our kids.
00:25:05.000 –> 00:25:11.000
And it really kind of breaks my heart when I think about how my kids were raised in that environment.
00:25:11.000 –> 00:25:15.000
And I really wish, looking back now, that I had
00:25:15.000 –> 00:25:20.000
walked away a lot sooner, which would have allowed me and my spouse to
00:25:20.000 –> 00:25:26.000
Eventually be the best versions of ourselves for our kids.
00:25:26.000 –> 00:25:27.000
Yeah.
00:25:27.000 –> 00:25:29.000
Um, but it’s a learning, it’s a learning process, right? You don’t…
00:25:29.000 –> 00:25:31.000
Hindsite is always 20-20.
00:25:31.000 –> 00:25:33.000
Are you joining me? Yep.
00:25:33.000 –> 00:25:35.000
Yeah.
00:25:35.000 –> 00:25:38.000
Yeah, I remember for a long time
00:25:38.000 –> 00:25:42.000
Is this personality wise, it was just like
00:25:42.000 –> 00:25:51.000
you know, when people get, Aubrie, you did the best that you could right? And then you look back, you can always be like
00:25:51.000 –> 00:25:56.000
You know, I wish and at the same time, it’s like
00:25:56.000 –> 00:25:59.000
We’re doing what we know how to do in the moments that we’re doing it
00:25:59.000 –> 00:26:02.000
Right.
00:26:02.000 –> 00:26:12.000
And the idea would be, like, just like you’re talking about, is like an awakening, or a learning, or a changing that happens, that when you move forward, you’re like, okay.
00:26:12.000 –> 00:26:16.000
Are there things that, you know, things I want to choose differently about
00:26:16.000 –> 00:26:25.000
In the moment, in the present, in the future. But yeah, that stuff that you’re talking about, about the grief, right? That’s like, that’s all part of that choppy seas part.
00:26:25.000 –> 00:26:26.000
Yeah.
00:26:26.000 –> 00:26:30.000
And like, when you’re saying like, how long does it take? And you’re, you know, from your own personal experience, you’re like
00:26:30.000 –> 00:26:37.000
two years, and still, you know, it’s still not like, you know, I know exactly what that is, and
00:26:37.000 –> 00:26:45.000
And that’s… there’s a book on transitions by William Bridges, and he talks about, like, there’s an ending, there’s a neutral zone, and then there’s a new beginning, right?
00:26:45.000 –> 00:26:46.000
Yeah.
00:26:46.000 –> 00:26:52.000
And the neutral zone is rarely neutral. Doesn’t feel neutral. It just he just means I think that you don’t know what’s happening.
00:26:52.000 –> 00:26:53.000
That makes sense.
00:26:53.000 –> 00:27:09.000
Right. Something new hasn’t started yet. But it can be kind of scary and frustrating, but there’s that. That’s that middle point, right? Which is like
00:27:09.000 –> 00:27:10.000
Yeah.
00:27:10.000 –> 00:27:13.000
Okay, my marriage is ending. I’m not yet past divorce or started my own chapter, however long that healing takes for people, but it’s a neutral zone of kind of like
00:27:13.000 –> 00:27:16.000
little bit in the dark right? Feeling your way around
00:27:16.000 –> 00:27:17.000
Right.
00:27:17.000 –> 00:27:20.000
About what’s happening
00:27:20.000 –> 00:27:22.000
And
00:27:22.000 –> 00:27:23.000
And it
00:27:23.000 –> 00:27:30.000
as much as I know that for myself in transition and be like, I would want somebody to be like, just tell me what to do. Just be done with it.
00:27:30.000 –> 00:27:31.000
You know?
00:27:31.000 –> 00:27:45.000
Yeah.
00:27:45.000 –> 00:27:46.000
Right.
00:27:46.000 –> 00:27:47.000
But there is all those things I imagine that you hear too, which is like, there’s the legal process of it, right? And you’re guiding people through that and helping them understand that. And then when that process is done, there’s another process that’s happening. They’re getting used to their parenting plan, right? They’re understanding what who they are as co-parents
00:27:47.000 –> 00:27:50.000
Co-appearance. Yeah, that’s…
00:27:50.000 –> 00:27:51.000
Yep.
00:27:51.000 –> 00:27:59.000
If they’re doing that right, their kids are going through milestones, they’re graduating there, you know people remarry or whatever, right? Like
00:27:59.000 –> 00:28:03.000
All of that continues to happen.
00:28:03.000 –> 00:28:06.000
So there isn’t just like a, you know
00:28:06.000 –> 00:28:13.000
a flip of the switch, right? And it’d be like, it’s over. I’m done.
00:28:13.000 –> 00:28:18.000
There’s just… there’s just more unfolding and things that occur.
00:28:18.000 –> 00:28:26.000
It takes time, and it is, it’s a process. Your one was… your one was really rough for me. It was… it was rough, it was painful, a lot of, you know, numbness.
00:28:26.000 –> 00:28:28.000
Sadness, grief,
00:28:28.000 –> 00:28:30.000
mourning, anger,
00:28:30.000 –> 00:28:31.000
Yeah.
00:28:31.000 –> 00:28:35.000
And, you know, year two. Year two feels… feels good. It feels acceptance, I guess, neutral.
00:28:35.000 –> 00:28:37.000
Yeah
00:28:37.000 –> 00:28:38.000
Yeah
00:28:38.000 –> 00:28:40.000
Neutral? It’s like, yep, we’re going to get it done, I mean…
00:28:40.000 –> 00:28:43.000
It’s going to get done soon.
00:28:43.000 –> 00:28:47.000
But this is a place that’s easier to start thinking about what you want from a place that feels more neutral.
00:28:47.000 –> 00:28:50.000
Yes. Yes.
00:28:50.000 –> 00:28:51.000
Yeah.
00:28:51.000 –> 00:28:59.000
And a lot… it’s easier to be objective, and I tell you folks, just because I do this for a living, it did not insulate me from going through my own divorce, and I experienced
00:28:59.000 –> 00:29:00.000
Right
00:29:00.000 –> 00:29:04.000
The same of emotions and just…
00:29:04.000 –> 00:29:06.000
It was a shitshow, folks, that’s all I can say, right?
00:29:06.000 –> 00:29:08.000
Right.
00:29:08.000 –> 00:29:10.000
Outside and inside!
00:29:10.000 –> 00:29:17.000
Yeah, yeah, and that’s the thing they’re like, just because this is what I do with people for work doesn’t mean that like
00:29:17.000 –> 00:29:18.000
We’re human beings
00:29:18.000 –> 00:29:20.000
Didn’t make my… my divorce easier? Yeah.
00:29:20.000 –> 00:29:26.000
You know
00:29:26.000 –> 00:29:27.000
You know what?
00:29:27.000 –> 00:29:30.000
To have that experience is because we do this a lot doesn’t mean that we aren’t human about what happens in our own lives, but I think that that’s important, because that’s what
00:29:30.000 –> 00:29:32.000
Is
00:29:32.000 –> 00:29:33.000
brings connection
00:29:33.000 –> 00:29:36.000
Yeah.
00:29:36.000 –> 00:29:37.000
It is! It is!
00:29:37.000 –> 00:29:48.000
And also people, I think, felt really alone and isolated at these times. So the more that it’s like we feel like this is what we’re going through as hard as it is, is normal. Lots of people go through it
00:29:48.000 –> 00:29:51.000
so that there’s a real natural process to this.
00:29:51.000 –> 00:29:53.000
Right.
00:29:53.000 –> 00:29:56.000
That I can feel less isolating.
00:29:56.000 –> 00:29:58.000
And you know what you meant?
00:29:58.000 –> 00:29:59.000
Let’s just self-judgment.
00:29:59.000 –> 00:30:05.000
Right, because… and so, talking about the self-judgment, right? The self-judgment, the beating yourself up…
00:30:05.000 –> 00:30:06.000
Yeah.
00:30:06.000 –> 00:30:09.000
Uh, so let’s talk about how you help people
00:30:09.000 –> 00:30:13.000
how they treat themselves during transitions.
00:30:13.000 –> 00:30:14.000
Yeah.
00:30:14.000 –> 00:30:27.000
Yeah, I think that there’s somewhat of a cultural piece here in the Us. Where it’s like the expectation is that you know what you’re supposed to do, and you do it, and you move on with it
00:30:27.000 –> 00:30:28.000
Right.
00:30:28.000 –> 00:30:32.000
Whatever that thing is, right? There’s a high value in like doing it right. Doing it the right way.
00:30:32.000 –> 00:30:33.000
Absolutely.
00:30:33.000 –> 00:30:35.000
And it not taking very long
00:30:35.000 –> 00:30:36.000
Yes!
00:30:36.000 –> 00:30:37.000
And you’re off to the next
00:30:37.000 –> 00:30:41.000
You know, Instagram worthy, you know, part of your life.
00:30:41.000 –> 00:30:51.000
And I mean, encouraged by all of these pieces that I see out there about, you know, like it’s you know lives are messy, but I think there’s
00:30:51.000 –> 00:30:53.000
a sense of
00:30:53.000 –> 00:31:02.000
Self-judgment and the fact that it’s a percent can be a sense of self-protection. It should be like, okay, well, if I did these things wrong
00:31:02.000 –> 00:31:08.000
Then I know how to do it right next time. And then I won’t have XYZ happen.
00:31:08.000 –> 00:31:12.000
Or I won’t have as much pain, or I can avoid this, that, or the other.
00:31:12.000 –> 00:31:13.000
Okay.
00:31:13.000 –> 00:31:17.000
And if that’s the case, I mean, like if it’s
00:31:17.000 –> 00:31:21.000
nothing is bad to be protecting oneself, but
00:31:21.000 –> 00:31:26.000
There’s a lot more that can be there
00:31:26.000 –> 00:31:36.000
In this sense, like we can, like you’re talking about of you know an awakening or transformation or coming home to oneself or more peacefulness, you know?
00:31:36.000 –> 00:31:37.000
or neutrality.
00:31:37.000 –> 00:31:38.000
Yeah.
00:31:38.000 –> 00:31:50.000
And so, that all peacefulness, neutrality, all that can be an inside job right as well as an expectation of an interaction with the outside world
00:31:50.000 –> 00:31:52.000
So
00:31:52.000 –> 00:31:57.000
being in a sense of like sometimes it’s like, okay, well, what if what if we take blame off of it for a second?
00:31:57.000 –> 00:31:58.000
Okay.
00:31:58.000 –> 00:32:00.000
You know, blame off the partner or blame off yourself
00:32:00.000 –> 00:32:03.000
Oh, true.
00:32:03.000 –> 00:32:04.000
Yeah.
00:32:04.000 –> 00:32:08.000
If we take blame out of the picture, what do we got? What’s here to look at?
00:32:08.000 –> 00:32:15.000
I’m not saying they can’t go back to bullying anytime, you know, anytime you want, you know, but it’s like, even if we just carve out
00:32:15.000 –> 00:32:19.000
some time while we’re talking, where it’s like, okay.
00:32:19.000 –> 00:32:21.000
If it wasn’t about that, what might it be about instead?
00:32:21.000 –> 00:32:25.000
Or in addition to blame
00:32:25.000 –> 00:32:26.000
Yeah, go ahead.
00:32:26.000 –> 00:32:28.000
And no… no, no, go ahead.
00:32:28.000 –> 00:32:34.000
And I mean, and thinking about like, okay, so if the self-judgment does, isn’t going to be able to protect us
00:32:34.000 –> 00:32:38.000
Entirely because life happens.
00:32:38.000 –> 00:32:42.000
then… is there a reason to hang on to it?
00:32:42.000 –> 00:32:43.000
Okay. Yeah.
00:32:43.000 –> 00:32:49.000
And if there’s a reason to hang on to it that that’s important, then hang on to it.
00:32:49.000 –> 00:32:50.000
Okay.
00:32:50.000 –> 00:32:58.000
So it’s not meant to be like trying to lead somebody to a certain place, but be like, yeah, I’d much rather judge myself in this moment consciously than
00:32:58.000 –> 00:33:04.000
You know, see, see what is on the other side of that. Fair enough
00:33:04.000 –> 00:33:08.000
Do you… now, switching gears, but kind of along the same topic.
00:33:08.000 –> 00:33:12.000
Do you see people treating themselves
00:33:12.000 –> 00:33:17.000
negatively…
00:33:17.000 –> 00:33:18.000
Oh, yeah.
00:33:18.000 –> 00:33:19.000
when they’re dealing with job changes or job layoffs? Okay.
00:33:19.000 –> 00:33:24.000
Oh, yeah.
00:33:24.000 –> 00:33:25.000
Yeah. Great.
00:33:25.000 –> 00:33:28.000
Yeah, for sure. Like job changes is such an identity shift, right? Being laid off, hit to the confidence for some people, right?
00:33:28.000 –> 00:33:31.000
And so be like, oh man, I should have
00:33:31.000 –> 00:33:43.000
I should have seen this coming. I should have been smarter. I should have been looking sooner. I shouldn’t have said this thing to this other person, because
00:33:43.000 –> 00:33:44.000
Okay.
00:33:44.000 –> 00:33:49.000
That didn’t look very good politically, if they’re working in a corporate environment, and I know not everybody is, or I shouldn’t have gone into this field to begin with
00:33:49.000 –> 00:33:52.000
I should have picked something else.
00:33:52.000 –> 00:33:56.000
Like there’s all places the brain will go to in terms of judgment.
00:33:56.000 –> 00:33:57.000
Wow.
00:33:57.000 –> 00:33:59.000
And
00:33:59.000 –> 00:34:11.000
And I’m not saying that when I talk to people, I’m like, okay, I’m not saying that any of that isn’t true. You may or may not have had a different experience if you choose something else to do for a living. You would have had a different experience, but we don’t know if it would have been better or worse.
00:34:11.000 –> 00:34:12.000
Right.
00:34:12.000 –> 00:34:14.000
We can’t say
00:34:14.000 –> 00:34:16.000
So
00:34:16.000 –> 00:34:17.000
Is it…
00:34:17.000 –> 00:34:22.000
Do we want to do something about it now?
00:34:22.000 –> 00:34:25.000
Okay.
00:34:25.000 –> 00:34:34.000
Because if we want to go through the therapeutic part of the process, like, how did my family dynamics get me to this place and all that, that would be, you know, work with a counselor, with a therapist.
00:34:34.000 –> 00:34:35.000
Okay.
00:34:35.000 –> 00:34:38.000
We’re talking from the coaching standpoint, it’s like
00:34:38.000 –> 00:34:42.000
Okay, some of those things might be true, but we have no way of knowing.
00:34:42.000 –> 00:34:48.000
And as part of that uncertainty, we’re staying with the uncertainty and of itself
00:34:48.000 –> 00:34:50.000
can have benefits
00:34:50.000 –> 00:34:55.000
It’s uncomfortable, but we can say we don’t know
00:34:55.000 –> 00:35:00.000
So, when… when people have a job change or a layoff, and they come to you,
00:35:00.000 –> 00:35:09.000
Is there, like, a search and focus, like, okay, well, let’s… let’s figure out what’s next, what do you want to do next?
00:35:09.000 –> 00:35:10.000
Yeah.
00:35:10.000 –> 00:35:11.000
what career. Okay.
00:35:11.000 –> 00:35:16.000
So if they’ve got the anchor down, right? They’re in enough of a place where we can start to talk about
00:35:16.000 –> 00:35:38.000
What’s next or what they want next. There’s… we can narrow it in in a couple ways. One is what do they need in their life logistically? How does work need to work for them? That changes all the time, right? If you’re single, if you’re partnered
00:35:38.000 –> 00:35:40.000
Oh, I’m…
00:35:40.000 –> 00:35:41.000
Yeah.
00:35:41.000 –> 00:35:46.000
If you’re taking care of family members, right? So those logistics, how much do you need to make? Are you looking at benefits, right? All these kinds of nuts and bolts about work, getting clear about that in this moment, which might be different than it was before
00:35:46.000 –> 00:35:55.000
And then maybe different in the future, but what’s our snapshot right now of how work needs to work? And then who are you as a human being, which comes back to this idea of like
00:35:55.000 –> 00:36:04.000
All right. How do you get reconnected to yourself? We’re bigger than what we do for a living. We’re bigger than our partnerships, you know, in terms of who we are
00:36:04.000 –> 00:36:05.000
You know
00:36:05.000 –> 00:36:09.000
Right.
00:36:09.000 –> 00:36:10.000
sense of identity.
00:36:10.000 –> 00:36:12.000
Your sense of, you know, self and connectedness. And so
00:36:12.000 –> 00:36:13.000
Yeah.
00:36:13.000 –> 00:36:21.000
sense of identity, right? So if we can get that identity here, and we know based on the sense of identity, and we know based on like logistics of the way work needs to work, because
00:36:21.000 –> 00:36:30.000
There’s a lot of survival stuff around work in our country. So if we can get these two things narrowed in, then we’re working in a pool of stuff that we know
00:36:30.000 –> 00:36:31.000
Okay.
00:36:31.000 –> 00:36:42.000
Well, most likely work better. Now, some people will be like, they want to know for sure. So they’re like, I could go back to what I was doing, but I want to explore and see if there’s something else.
00:36:42.000 –> 00:36:50.000
So that they can be confident in their decision, that they’ve been thorough about it, right? And they’ve looked at the options. They may end up going and doing the thing they did before, but
00:36:50.000 –> 00:36:54.000
They want to look at it. Maybe they’ve always had a dream of doing something else.
00:36:54.000 –> 00:37:01.000
And then we can find out, is that… is now the time to step into it? Sometimes it is, and sometimes it’s not.
00:37:01.000 –> 00:37:02.000
Okay.
00:37:02.000 –> 00:37:08.000
But the whole idea is for them to be able to get behind it in a way that’s like, this is my ownership,
00:37:08.000 –> 00:37:13.000
my own self-authority around what’s right for me.
00:37:13.000 –> 00:37:14.000
Okay.
00:37:14.000 –> 00:37:18.000
Because so much of what we have in our society and work is
00:37:18.000 –> 00:37:21.000
is not geared around that.
00:37:21.000 –> 00:37:22.000
In my opinion
00:37:22.000 –> 00:37:29.000
You know, it’s amazing how much our identity, our sense of self, is tied up with
00:37:29.000 –> 00:37:41.000
our jobs, relationships.
00:37:41.000 –> 00:37:42.000
Right.
00:37:42.000 –> 00:37:49.000
Yeah, and in some ways it’s wonderful, right? Like if you have, you know, great relationship and or how much you love your kids and you know like if you have a job that works for you, whatever your definition of working for you is.
00:37:49.000 –> 00:37:52.000
That’s… that can feel great.
00:37:52.000 –> 00:37:59.000
And there’s times when, you know, we’re both working with people when it’s not feeling so great.
00:37:59.000 –> 00:38:02.000
It’s not always going to feel that way.
00:38:02.000 –> 00:38:06.000
But it is at the moment
00:38:06.000 –> 00:38:13.000
So, another area that you help people in… so, so far we’ve talked about age milestones,
00:38:13.000 –> 00:38:21.000
Uh, we talked about divorce, we talked about job changes, or job layoffs, and another area that you help people with
00:38:21.000 –> 00:38:22.000
is… is hell.
00:38:22.000 –> 00:38:23.000
Yeah.
00:38:23.000 –> 00:38:31.000
Can you… how do you help people with that?
00:38:31.000 –> 00:38:32.000
Okay.
00:38:32.000 –> 00:38:43.000
Yeah, so there’s two areas where that happens most. One, if someone has their own health condition. And that’s changed their relationship to their identity and their self, and most likely their earning, right? Like how they’re supporting themselves and
00:38:43.000 –> 00:38:44.000
Oh. Yeah.
00:38:44.000 –> 00:38:48.000
So, I’ve had clients with concussions, with cancer, with things that they have experiences where their priorities drastically shift
00:38:48.000 –> 00:38:51.000
Okay, that makes sense.
00:38:51.000 –> 00:38:58.000
Right.
00:38:58.000 –> 00:39:02.000
Right.
00:39:02.000 –> 00:39:03.000
Okay.
00:39:03.000 –> 00:39:05.000
Right? Based on possible, they have to. Right? Or because they’re so changed from their physical experience and emotional and mental experience, right? So there’s that. So like working with people that are on medical leave, that happens quite a bit. People who are medical leave at work and they’re not sure they can go back to work
00:39:05.000 –> 00:39:09.000
In the sense that they can, but they’re like
00:39:09.000 –> 00:39:11.000
That environment is terrible. I don’t want to go back, right?
00:39:11.000 –> 00:39:17.000
I’m sick because of that environment.
00:39:17.000 –> 00:39:18.000
Yeah.
00:39:18.000 –> 00:39:29.000
So I’m sick because of that environment. I had to take a leave because of that environment. So there’s that. And then it’s like people we love and care about. So whether a loved one is ill or has died
00:39:29.000 –> 00:39:33.000
Like I work with, you know, folks
00:39:33.000 –> 00:39:34.000
Right.
00:39:34.000 –> 00:39:38.000
that are taking care of other people, right? Caregiving parents changes things.
00:39:38.000 –> 00:39:40.000
When people lose people, when people die
00:39:40.000 –> 00:39:41.000
Oh, yeah.
00:39:41.000 –> 00:39:47.000
It changes the outlook on the world. What’s even important anymore? Right?
00:39:47.000 –> 00:39:48.000
Okay.
00:39:48.000 –> 00:39:51.000
can happen pretty frequently.
00:39:51.000 –> 00:39:57.000
And especially for caregivers, whether it’s for your partner or if it’s a child or a parent.
00:39:57.000 –> 00:39:58.000
Right
00:39:58.000 –> 00:40:00.000
It’s
00:40:00.000 –> 00:40:01.000
It really
00:40:01.000 –> 00:40:04.000
Wait a minute, I would… I would think they would see a grief counselor.
00:40:04.000 –> 00:40:05.000
Oh, okay. Okay.
00:40:05.000 –> 00:40:18.000
Oh, yes, they should see a grief counselor 100%. Yeah. And that’s what I mean like for me, it’s like I’m not a divorce coach in the sense that I’m going to walk somebody through the process of divorce. I’m not a grief counselor, which means I’m not going to like walk somebody specifically through with their grief. I’m not a nutrition coach, right
00:40:18.000 –> 00:40:21.000
Okay.
00:40:21.000 –> 00:40:22.000
Okay, yes.
00:40:22.000 –> 00:40:35.000
So I’m not going to like tell people what I think they should eat, you know, but when we talk about an identity change or transformation or something that’s going on in relationship to what’s happening with their work life, what’s happening to their personal life and where they are in that journey.
00:40:35.000 –> 00:40:36.000
Okay.
00:40:36.000 –> 00:40:37.000
Then
00:40:37.000 –> 00:40:45.000
their support for that kind of
00:40:45.000 –> 00:40:46.000
Right.
00:40:46.000 –> 00:40:49.000
That kind of experience. Now, some people will go see a counselor or therapist, and that’ll be all they need. Some people don’t want to go see a therapist. They don’t want therapy.
00:40:49.000 –> 00:40:50.000
No, they don’t.
00:40:50.000 –> 00:40:54.000
We’d rather have a coach instead of a therapist, and that’s fine too.
00:40:54.000 –> 00:41:05.000
You know, it’s… I… I really appreciate you kind of making that differentiation between
00:41:05.000 –> 00:41:06.000
Yeah.
00:41:06.000 –> 00:41:08.000
And especially in terms of, like, I’m, you know, I’m not here to give you therapy about the divorce, walk you through that, or even… or grief, because…
00:41:08.000 –> 00:41:14.000
for my own self, like, I had a therapist that helped me process
00:41:14.000 –> 00:41:15.000
Yeah.
00:41:15.000 –> 00:41:16.000
the feelings, but now that I think about it,
00:41:16.000 –> 00:41:18.000
it would have been nice to
00:41:18.000 –> 00:41:22.000
have had a coach after I had
00:41:22.000 –> 00:41:23.000
Yes.
00:41:23.000 –> 00:41:24.000
Yes
00:41:24.000 –> 00:41:25.000
process out some of the feelings, of course, because there’s a lot of feelings to process.
00:41:25.000 –> 00:41:26.000
Yeah
00:41:26.000 –> 00:41:31.000
than to work with a coach, and just in terms of, okay, well, where’d I go from here? Because…
00:41:31.000 –> 00:41:32.000
Now what
00:41:32.000 –> 00:41:37.000
Uh, yeah, now what? Because I don’t… I have no clue what I want.
00:41:37.000 –> 00:41:48.000
you know, where, you know, where I want to live, do I want to stay in Washington? Do I want to… do I want to go back home to Hawaii? Which I actually did go back home to Hawaii.
00:41:48.000 –> 00:41:49.000
Yeah.
00:41:49.000 –> 00:41:51.000
For a bit. Like, I don’t know what the hell I’m doing, I don’t know what I want.
00:41:51.000 –> 00:41:52.000
Right
00:41:52.000 –> 00:41:55.000
Somebody help me, please!
00:41:55.000 –> 00:41:56.000
Yeah.
00:41:56.000 –> 00:42:01.000
Yes. And that’s the coaching part of it, right? Which is I sort out what I want and from where I am right now. So yeah, I have like
00:42:01.000 –> 00:42:17.000
amazing people that I know that are therapists, that are death doulas, that are divorce coaches. You know, we know much of those people in common, too, right? And those are the folks that work during that time around that specific place, right
00:42:17.000 –> 00:42:19.000
And then it’s like, okay, now what
00:42:19.000 –> 00:42:23.000
What’s next? How do I know what’s next?
00:42:23.000 –> 00:42:25.000
Yeah. What’s next?
00:42:25.000 –> 00:42:28.000
That’s the big part in determining
00:42:28.000 –> 00:42:34.000
Yeah, but if someone’s in that major grief place, there’s no room for the what’s next, right? There’s still
00:42:34.000 –> 00:42:37.000
Staying with the sadness
00:42:37.000 –> 00:42:40.000
and all the others feelings that grief brings.
00:42:40.000 –> 00:42:48.000
Right, and just if I had walked… if I had met with a coach without processing those feelings first, I wouldn’t have been ready.
00:42:48.000 –> 00:42:49.000
No
00:42:49.000 –> 00:42:50.000
It was so raw.
00:42:50.000 –> 00:42:56.000
Right. Or if you’re going through the divorce and the main thing you want to do is ask questions like
00:42:56.000 –> 00:42:57.000
Okay.
00:42:57.000 –> 00:43:03.000
About parenting plans, or… Yeah, and divorce coaches can help on the next part of life, too, but this is the idea of like
00:43:03.000 –> 00:43:11.000
Okay, what does it mean? How many, you know, am I going to do mediation, right? What’s happening in this
00:43:11.000 –> 00:43:15.000
How do I advocate for myself in the divorce process? Like, all of that
00:43:15.000 –> 00:43:18.000
Yeah, divorce coach gets you through the thing.
00:43:18.000 –> 00:43:19.000
Okay.
00:43:19.000 –> 00:43:22.000
Right? And then now what?
00:43:22.000 –> 00:43:28.000
Let’s figure that out, because you’re not who you used to be, and you’re not who you are going to be yet.
00:43:28.000 –> 00:43:29.000
Right.
00:43:29.000 –> 00:43:31.000
Yeah.
00:43:31.000 –> 00:43:37.000
Uh, so, yeah, so that’s… that’s an important clarification as well, too, just in terms of,
00:43:37.000 –> 00:43:43.000
Again, that divorce coach is that one that helps you to figure out what a parenting plan’s going to look like.
00:43:43.000 –> 00:43:47.000
how to advocate for yourself in your divorce.
00:43:47.000 –> 00:43:49.000
then you come in,
00:43:49.000 –> 00:44:00.000
in terms of, well, what’s my identity now? What do I want to, you know, where am I… where’s my next chapter? What is my next chapter of life going to look like?
00:44:00.000 –> 00:44:08.000
Yeah, and a lot of the way that I interact with the divorce community is around the piece around how work does that
00:44:08.000 –> 00:44:19.000
Right? Because there’s a… so in terms of like if there’s an area of expertise in there, right, which is like that identity piece around okay
00:44:19.000 –> 00:44:23.000
Now what do I want to do? What do I need to do?
00:44:23.000 –> 00:44:25.000
Who am I becoming in terms of
00:44:25.000 –> 00:44:33.000
identity in terms of who I am in the world. A lot of that in our society is about work
00:44:33.000 –> 00:44:34.000
Okay.
00:44:34.000 –> 00:44:35.000
Yeah.
00:44:35.000 –> 00:44:39.000
Is there a… so, in terms of, um…
00:44:39.000 –> 00:44:49.000
I would imagine there’s some sort of a common framework that you assist people with, whether it’s divorce, age milestones, health, or job changes, or layoff. Is it…
00:44:49.000 –> 00:44:51.000
Is there a certain, again,
00:44:51.000 –> 00:44:58.000
just formula or framework about, like, you know, okay, well, we’re going to talk about, like, what happens,
00:44:58.000 –> 00:45:03.000
what’s going on?
00:45:03.000 –> 00:45:04.000
Um, what else would you want to add?
00:45:04.000 –> 00:45:09.000
Yes, so the idea would be, it’s like, okay, we get the anchor down
00:45:09.000 –> 00:45:10.000
Okay.
00:45:10.000 –> 00:45:12.000
Right in the stormy seas
00:45:12.000 –> 00:45:14.000
So it’d be like, okay.
00:45:14.000 –> 00:45:22.000
How do you get connected? How do we reframe some perspective about it, right? If that’s necessary, get to a place where there’s more neutral, right?
00:45:22.000 –> 00:45:23.000
Okay.
00:45:23.000 –> 00:45:26.000
standpoint. And then we say, all right, so from there
00:45:26.000 –> 00:45:30.000
We start to look at what’s possible or what you want.
00:45:30.000 –> 00:45:36.000
How to get reconnected to yourself to understand that, right? There’s a process I have called threads that really helps to do that.
00:45:36.000 –> 00:45:37.000
And then it’s this way of saying
00:45:37.000 –> 00:45:38.000
You… what’s the process called again?
00:45:38.000 –> 00:45:39.000
threads
00:45:39.000 –> 00:45:40.000
Oh, threads? Okay.
00:45:40.000 –> 00:45:49.000
Okay.
00:45:49.000 –> 00:45:50.000
Okay.
00:45:50.000 –> 00:45:57.000
Now, who am I as a person? Often use it for folks with work because it helps a lot with that too. But this idea of like when we’re talking about like, who am I? Who have I been, and then who am I becoming? Got this idea of like, okay, do we have a base of who we are, and then we express it in different ways at different points in our lives
00:45:57.000 –> 00:46:02.000
It’s like most clear cut when we talk about like, so for me and think about my work
00:46:02.000 –> 00:46:07.000
I sold hosiery, I sold hosiery at a retail store
00:46:07.000 –> 00:46:16.000
And then I worked at Nike in IT. And I worked at a nonprofit with students with disabilities. And now I’m a coach in private practice.
00:46:16.000 –> 00:46:20.000
got the same commonalities that go through all of these things.
00:46:20.000 –> 00:46:23.000
really different things that I’ve done for work.
00:46:23.000 –> 00:46:25.000
Wait, I got…
00:46:25.000 –> 00:46:26.000
Uh-huh.
00:46:26.000 –> 00:46:28.000
But how I show up in all those things is very consistent.
00:46:28.000 –> 00:46:29.000
Okay.
00:46:29.000 –> 00:46:37.000
And so when I know that, when I know that I have those things that are very consistent, I’m just looking at the next way I’m going to express myself.
00:46:37.000 –> 00:46:45.000
So I’m allowing myself the freedom to have an awakening, to transform, to change, to see what’s coming that’s new, it’s possible.
00:46:45.000 –> 00:46:51.000
What things am I reconnecting to about myself that have always been true about me so that I can move forward
00:46:51.000 –> 00:46:52.000
Oh, that’s interesting.
00:46:52.000 –> 00:46:56.000
into those spaces into doing whatever is next, even if you don’t know what this thing is, right?
00:46:56.000 –> 00:46:57.000
Right.
00:46:57.000 –> 00:47:07.000
This is a big question mark. A lot of people might be going through that in terms of like never had to look for a job in tech, right? They’ve always been recruited for things
00:47:07.000 –> 00:47:08.000
I see.
00:47:08.000 –> 00:47:12.000
And then there’s specific things that they no longer can do because of the way that the
00:47:12.000 –> 00:47:22.000
We the industry’s transforming. Then now they have to look for a job. They never had to look for a job. And not only that, it’s highly competitive. And then the skills that they have aren’t necessarily needed in the same way anymore. So what on earth are they going to do?
00:47:22.000 –> 00:47:24.000
And… I get it.
00:47:24.000 –> 00:47:28.000
Well, let’s talk about who they are.
00:47:28.000 –> 00:47:34.000
And then that may require, you know, retraining or any of those kinds of things, but
00:47:34.000 –> 00:47:37.000
It can be painful
00:47:37.000 –> 00:47:43.000
You know what? It just… it just popped in my head. I’m like, oh my goodness, I should refer…
00:47:43.000 –> 00:47:49.000
My soon-to-be ex-husband to you, because he got… he got laid off from his job!
00:47:49.000 –> 00:47:58.000
Of, like, 15, 16, 17 years, and I’m sure he’s going through… it’s like, who’s, you know, he’s, like, mid-50s,
00:47:58.000 –> 00:48:06.000
And I… he was in… he was in, uh, sales. It’s like, who’s going to hire him? I’m sure he’s experiencing a big…
00:48:06.000 –> 00:48:08.000
Identity loss and crisis.
00:48:08.000 –> 00:48:12.000
But he would probably scoff at me.
00:48:12.000 –> 00:48:18.000
You’re like, no, I’m good. But… but he would benefit from you!
00:48:18.000 –> 00:48:22.000
Wait, and did I hear you say that you used to sell hosiery?
00:48:22.000 –> 00:48:23.000
Yeah
00:48:23.000 –> 00:48:28.000
At a rea… what… I didn’t know there was a store… I’m assuming it was a retail department,
00:48:28.000 –> 00:48:29.000
Yeah.
00:48:29.000 –> 00:48:30.000
And was that the Department of Assembling hosiery?
00:48:30.000 –> 00:48:32.000
Yes
00:48:32.000 –> 00:48:33.000
Wow!
00:48:33.000 –> 00:48:41.000
Well, I know. Yeah, I probably don’t even call that anymore. But yeah, it was at when at least I was in Portland, Oregon. I was at Meyer and Frank.
00:48:41.000 –> 00:48:42.000
Okay.
00:48:42.000 –> 00:48:46.000
Which used to Macy’s purchased it. So it was a long, long, long time ago. Yeah.
00:48:46.000 –> 00:48:48.000
Was this in the 90s?
00:48:48.000 –> 00:48:49.000
Yeah.
00:48:49.000 –> 00:48:50.000
Oh, wow.
00:48:50.000 –> 00:48:52.000
Yeah, it was in the 90s
00:48:52.000 –> 00:49:00.000
Yeah, and I remember I was like, people were like, I can’t believe they put you because they didn’t have any control over it. Like, I got a job there for the summer, you know, for the for the holidays.
00:49:00.000 –> 00:49:05.000
Okay.
00:49:05.000 –> 00:49:06.000
Yeah.
00:49:06.000 –> 00:49:09.000
Summer holiday, winter break, all those things, spring break, I’d come back home from school and I’d work at Myron Frank, and you don’t get to choose your department.
00:49:09.000 –> 00:49:10.000
Oh, oh no!
00:49:10.000 –> 00:49:12.000
They just put you wherever they need you.
00:49:12.000 –> 00:49:13.000
Oh, jeez.
00:49:13.000 –> 00:49:18.000
And they put them in hosiery and lingerie, and I was like, you picked the worst person
00:49:18.000 –> 00:49:20.000
Like, I could care.
00:49:20.000 –> 00:49:25.000
about any of these things, just send me some anywhere else, right?
00:49:25.000 –> 00:49:36.000
And
00:49:36.000 –> 00:49:37.000
Cool.
00:49:37.000 –> 00:49:40.000
you know, had a lot of laughs about it, but when I look back at it, there’s certain things like they wanted me to sell a certain product because it was on sale. I wanted people to come in, and I wanted to talk to them about what they needed.
00:49:40.000 –> 00:49:41.000
Yeah.
00:49:41.000 –> 00:49:54.000
I wanted them to tell me what they were looking for. I wanted to have a conversation with them about it. I wanted to help them find what they were looking for, but also keep like not teach, but like explain to them
00:49:54.000 –> 00:49:55.000
Right.
00:49:55.000 –> 00:50:00.000
What options they had and why this would be better for what they want. And that would, I didn’t care what gender, whatever. How can I help you find what you need?
00:50:00.000 –> 00:50:01.000
Ah, I see.
00:50:01.000 –> 00:50:10.000
So then it’s like, and then I was very big on being like, I’m not going to force anybody to buy something just because you think they should have it.
00:50:10.000 –> 00:50:15.000
They should be empowered on their own to not only decide what they want for themselves, but to also come back and
00:50:15.000 –> 00:50:18.000
not necessarily need my help to do it.
00:50:18.000 –> 00:50:19.000
Great.
00:50:19.000 –> 00:50:28.000
Right? To feel like they can make that choice and have enough information. I mean, and it didn’t matter to me whether they were excited about it or not, like, they may love hosiery.
00:50:28.000 –> 00:50:34.000
Like, I’m not, it’s not up to me whether you should or shouldn’t be excited about hosiery, you know
00:50:34.000 –> 00:50:36.000
But
00:50:36.000 –> 00:50:39.000
I had to find some way to get behind that job.
00:50:39.000 –> 00:50:47.000
And for me to get behind that job was to do it in my own way. Now, that didn’t make me a great salesperson, like, I didn’t rack up any records.
00:50:47.000 –> 00:50:48.000
Well, it…
00:50:48.000 –> 00:50:50.000
But
00:50:50.000 –> 00:50:58.000
But it’s very early formative part I think I was 16, 17 years old.
00:50:58.000 –> 00:51:00.000
Oh, that was really young.
00:51:00.000 –> 00:51:03.000
About how
00:51:03.000 –> 00:51:11.000
my relationship to work, or my relationship to how I want to do something that’s important, and that’s carried through all of my career.
00:51:11.000 –> 00:51:12.000
Yeah.
00:51:12.000 –> 00:51:18.000
I do the same things with people now just about different topics, and I have much more satisfaction now than doing it in it right or doing it
00:51:18.000 –> 00:51:19.000
Uh-huh.
00:51:19.000 –> 00:51:21.000
at a retail store.
00:51:21.000 –> 00:51:25.000
But if I… but if I get blocked and I can’t do that
00:51:25.000 –> 00:51:27.000
It’s problematic
00:51:27.000 –> 00:51:33.000
Like, if they were to come down and say, you’re going to get fired if you don’t do X, Y, and Z
00:51:33.000 –> 00:51:37.000
Right? Or no, you don’t get to help anybody. Just ring them up.
00:51:37.000 –> 00:51:39.000
Okay.
00:51:39.000 –> 00:51:41.000
Very problematic. I would have been so unhappy.
00:51:41.000 –> 00:51:44.000
You know, it sounds like…
00:51:44.000 –> 00:51:49.000
you were coaching people from a young age, and what hosiery to buy?
00:51:49.000 –> 00:51:52.000
So that’s what it was!
00:51:52.000 –> 00:51:56.000
Yeah, and I didn’t know it then, you know?
00:51:56.000 –> 00:51:57.000
But
00:51:57.000 –> 00:51:58.000
Wow, amazing.
00:51:58.000 –> 00:52:04.000
Yeah, but I had similar kinds of consultative roles at Nike and IT. I mean, it was never the coder
00:52:04.000 –> 00:52:07.000
You know, that never worked out well for me.
00:52:07.000 –> 00:52:11.000
It was always people. It’s always people for me.
00:52:11.000 –> 00:52:16.000
Yeah, and you still… don’t you… don’t you do a workshop?
00:52:16.000 –> 00:52:17.000
Can you tell us about that?
00:52:17.000 –> 00:52:26.000
Yeah, so I have a workshop called Finding Your Center in Career Uncertainty, and it’s all about that spot where you’re putting the anchor down.
00:52:26.000 –> 00:52:27.000
Okay, so it’s…
00:52:27.000 –> 00:52:37.000
It’s about coming to a place of saying, okay, this… this is really uncomfortable, or for people who have been looking for a long time, right? And they’re just coming up against blocks
00:52:37.000 –> 00:52:38.000
Okay.
00:52:38.000 –> 00:52:45.000
Right? Like, this just isn’t working. Or people who are like in the market, right? Is
00:52:45.000 –> 00:52:46.000
Right.
00:52:46.000 –> 00:53:00.000
really unpredictable right now. I’m feeling pretty scared about it. And so it’s this idea that you can… how to get into this space where you can deal with the uncertainty of it in a way that feels better. So then you can get to a place of looking at, like, okay, well, then what’s next
00:53:00.000 –> 00:53:01.000
About that.
00:53:01.000 –> 00:53:05.000
And that is called… that workshop is called Finding Your Center in…
00:53:05.000 –> 00:53:10.000
a career?
00:53:10.000 –> 00:53:13.000
Career uncertainty.
00:53:13.000 –> 00:53:14.000
Okay.
00:53:14.000 –> 00:53:16.000
Yeah, well, this one I’m doing on the 7th is career uncertainty. But I’ve done just finding your center uncertainty in general too, which is like for any kind of transition.
00:53:16.000 –> 00:53:24.000
So, you have a workshop, Finding Your Center in Career Uncertainty and Finding Your Center in Uncertainty.
00:53:24.000 –> 00:53:30.000
Okay. And how do people… if people are interested in that workshop, it’s on Zoom?
00:53:30.000 –> 00:53:31.000
Yeah, it’s on Zoom. Dan, you can
00:53:31.000 –> 00:53:33.000
For how long?
00:53:33.000 –> 00:53:34.000
It’s just an hour long
00:53:34.000 –> 00:53:35.000
Okay, an hour? Okay.
00:53:35.000 –> 00:53:39.000
Yeah, yeah, just real easy.
00:53:39.000 –> 00:53:48.000
something… I mean, when people are stressed out, just kind of like we were talking about before, like, working together for 90 days, like, you know, working together for 3 months is the amount of time you can get your head around. We’re on Zoom so much, right? It’s just like
00:53:48.000 –> 00:53:49.000
Right.
00:53:49.000 –> 00:53:51.000
Just do this for an hour.
00:53:51.000 –> 00:53:52.000
So how do they…?
00:53:52.000 –> 00:53:56.000
Just get some things that you can use, you know?
00:53:56.000 –> 00:53:57.000
Yeah.
00:53:57.000 –> 00:53:59.000
Yeah, so do you… so how do people, uh,
00:53:59.000 –> 00:54:02.000
if they’re interested in this workshop, where did they go to?
00:54:02.000 –> 00:54:07.000
Yeah, on my website, there’s a tab for workshops. And so coachingforclarity.net and there will be a workshops tab.
00:54:07.000 –> 00:54:10.000
Okay. CoachingforClarity.net.
00:54:10.000 –> 00:54:15.000
is… is your website, and they just look for the tab that says workshops.
00:54:15.000 –> 00:54:16.000
Yeah.
00:54:16.000 –> 00:54:21.000
Okay, and do you have, uh, other resources, like a newsletter or workbook?
00:54:21.000 –> 00:54:37.000
Yeah, I have a newsletter and people can sign up for that. I don’t like stuff happens like my business coach is so funny and they’re like, you should be writing, writing, writing. And I’m like
00:54:37.000 –> 00:54:38.000
That would be a lot.
00:54:38.000 –> 00:54:42.000
It happens when it happens, folks. It’s not like you sign up for it, you’re going to get a newsletter a week. But yeah, I have people do that.
00:54:42.000 –> 00:54:43.000
Oh, that’s too much!
00:54:43.000 –> 00:54:57.000
Well, it’s a lot. I’m impressed. But they have but I have two workbooks. One’s called weathering a work change. And so that’s a workbook on my site, and the other one’s a threads workbook that walks people through that process for helping to identify that
00:54:57.000 –> 00:55:00.000
consistency about who they are.
00:55:00.000 –> 00:55:06.000
Okay, so to find out more information about Aubrie’s Zoom workshops,
00:55:06.000 –> 00:55:11.000
Um, to sign up for her newsletter, or to get her workbooks, threads,
00:55:11.000 –> 00:55:15.000
or the workbook, Weathering Work Change, then just go to…
00:55:15.000 –> 00:55:19.000
um, coaching for clarity.
00:55:19.000 –> 00:55:20.000
Yeah
00:55:20.000 –> 00:55:23.000
And so, is that the best way for people to get ahold of you, too, to go to your website?
00:55:23.000 –> 00:55:24.000
Yes.
00:55:24.000 –> 00:55:36.000
Yeah, you can go to my website. People can call, text, email me, whatever works best for them is totally fine. You can also go out. I have a 30 min free consultation, and so people are welcome to schedule that online on the scheduling tab.
00:55:36.000 –> 00:55:37.000
Yeah.
00:55:37.000 –> 00:55:41.000
All right, so there you have it, folks. To get a hold of Aubrie, go to CoachingForClarity.com.
00:55:41.000 –> 00:55:44.000
net and schedule your appointment.
00:55:44.000 –> 00:55:47.000
She’s here to help you with those life changes, Anne.
00:55:47.000 –> 00:55:54.000
Man, I wish I knew of you when I was going through my big life change. I mean, I still am, but I’m at the… I’m coming out of it.
00:55:54.000 –> 00:55:56.000
Yeah.
00:55:56.000 –> 00:55:57.000
Yeah, you’re on the new beginning part.
00:55:57.000 –> 00:55:58.000
I’m on the new beginning part.
00:55:58.000 –> 00:56:01.000
Yeah.
00:56:01.000 –> 00:56:02.000
Hmm.
00:56:02.000 –> 00:56:03.000
Well, thank you so much, Aubrie. It was such a pleasure to have you on today.
00:56:03.000 –> 00:56:05.000
Thanks for having me.
00:56:05.000 –> 00:56:13.000
And, um, for all my listeners out there, uh, thank you for joining. Don’t forget to hit that subscribe and like button, and…
00:56:13.000 –> 00:56:20.000
This is Lani Akiona of Akiona Law. Again, the podcast wherein, we talk about anything and everything.
00:56:20.000 –> 00:56:25.000
that intersects in the area of family law and divorce. Until next time…
00:56:25.000 –> 00:56:31.000
Be well.