In this episode of the Akiona Law podcast, Ululani “Lani” Akiona speaks with Jennifer Keilin, MSW, LICSW, a Washington-based mental health specialist with over two decades of experience helping families transition from conflict to cooperation. Ululani and Jennifer dive into the nuance of high-conflict family dynamics, distinguishing between justified rejection and parental alienation, and emphasizing why a child’s mental health and trauma-informed care must take center stage. Tune in for an empathetic, deeply informative discussion on restoring family connections.
Episode Transcript
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All right, and this is that, we’re going to start over again.
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Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Akiona Law Podcast, wherein we talk about anything and everything that intersects in the areas of family law and divorce.
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I am Lani Akiona, and today, I’m excited to introduce you to my guest.
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She is Jennifer Keilin.
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She has an MSW and an LICSW. She is a Washington-based mental health specialist.
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With over two decades of experience helping families transition.
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From conflict to cooperation.
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She specializes in court-involved family dynamics,
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High conflict co-parenting.
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and comprehensive family assessments using a blend of clinical analysis.
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and compassionate counseling.
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Jennifer has been a speaker and presenter at many Washington.
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Family law, continuing legal educations.
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I have used her in cases before.
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She’s great, she has just this wealth of information and knowledge.
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And I am so excited to have her on today, especially since this is her first time doing a podcast.
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Welcome, Jennifer.
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Thank you so much. That was so kind. I’m really happy to be here today. It’s a pleasure.
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Well, I’ve always enjoyed your presentations at our Continuing Legal Educations, our CLEs, and it’s just… you just, you know, in the areas of.
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If hi, oh gosh, I just lost my…
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In the areas of parent-child contact problems.
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formerly known as parental alienation.
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the wealth of knowledge that you have is just amazing.
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Thank you.
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Can you tell us a little bit, though, before we get started, about, like, what…
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How you got into doing this work?
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Ooh, yeah, um, so I, um, let’s see, broadly speaking, when I got out of my graduate degree program, I started working for child welfare services, doing child protective services investigation.
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And through that, I met a forensic psychologist here in Seattle, and I started working in his office supporting him with the psychological assessments that he was doing. And he did parenting evaluations and GAL work, et cetera.
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I was able…
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Yeah.
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One second. For GAL, that means guardian ad litem.
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Yes, thank you. Guardian ad litem work investigations. And so I just received a wealth of training and information that built onto the practices that I’d already done with families, you know, through investigations, et cetera. And so in 2003, I went into private practice.
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And I was primarily conducting parenting evaluations and guardian ad litem investigations.
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Over time in the field, I.
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saw…
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I like to think I’ve seen almost every kind of family there is, although families keep changing. So I probably haven’t. And saw just a lot of different problems. And over time, the higher conflict families became an increasing focus for the legal field and for myself as well.
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And then more and more the phenomenon of these parent-child contact problems became more pressing concern. And over time, my practice evolved from doing the investigations to wanting to do the interventions. I wanted to help the families.
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they were at. And so for the last, you know, five or six years, that’s primarily the work that I’ve been doing is working with families that are involved in family law cases with a pretty significant percentage of them, ones where a
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child is refusing or really resisting contact with the parent.
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Oh, thank you for that, and you touched upon parent-child contact problems and
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In the legal industry, we love to use acronyms, so it’s called PCCP for short.
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Correct.
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Parent-child contact problems.
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And, you know, these, these charts have been bandied about, right? First it was parental alienation.
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Yes.
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And then you can also justify rejection.
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Now, does that… that all falls under the umbrella of parent-child contact problems.
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Correct? Okay.
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Yes, yes. Anytime you have a parent and a child that there’s some sort of challenge with their contact together, that’s the big umbrella category for the variety of…
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Um, things that explain that behavior. So justified rejection might explain that behavior. Small, small, small percentage of cases, it is truly parental alienation.
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A lot of cases, the majority of cases we find, it’s what we call hybrid, where it’s a mix of behaviors between two parents.
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parents and a child and other factors as well.
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But they all go into the category of PCCP.
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Okay, so when when you see these, can you go a little bit into justified rejection and like what have you seen? What does that mean?
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Yeah, so justified rejection is a category where a child refuses contact with the parent because of something that the parent has done that is the primary.
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driving factor. Like, far and away, the largest factor. So…
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It might be abuse.
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Yeah.
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Um, it might be some sort of really poor parenting that interacts with the child’s particular vulnerability that create a situation where the, you know, the child just cannot manage the contact.
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It’s not because the other parent has
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contributed to undermining the relationship or behave badly. It’s because of the direct experience that the child has had with that parent.
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So, so let me just try and…
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clarify this, so let’s just say we have mom and dad, and let’s say…
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Dad as a primary parent.
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And mom, let’s just say she has mental health issues.
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And because of her mental health issues,
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She is enabled to give her child.
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the I don’t want to say the proper parenting, but you know, the way the proper nurturing and support that a child needs.
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And so the child no longer wants to see mom, and has nothing to do with dad.
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Okay, yeah.
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Chaotic. Yeah.
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Right. Yeah, and in a situation like that, you could have a parent with mental health issues that’s unreliable, that when they are present, they’re just really difficult personality that is overwhelming for the child, etc. Those kinds of interactions, yeah, that the child just
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Isn’t, uh, is not able to cope with that.
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Well, because the child, in a way, when the child has to parent the parent.
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Yes.
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the child is both safe and secure.
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Yes, exactly.
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Okay. Okay, so thank you. That really helps in understanding parent-child contact problems and justified rejection where it is.
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the child, in a way rejecting the parent, saying, you’re just too unstable for me.
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And it has nothing to do with, let’s say, dad. Okay, so let’s flip it around where we have.
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parential alienation. And that’s that’s a big term that’s bandied about in courtroom.
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Yes.
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And I’ve used it myself.
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Sure.
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Can you…
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And I swear I’ve only used it when it was justified.
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Okay.
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Of course.
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But can you explain to our listeners out there what is parental alienation?
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Um, yeah, so parental alienation, the concept is that, um, the… that the…
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that the parent and the child that are having the contact problem that actually, if it were not for the behaviors of the other parent undermining
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Ah.
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and intentionally damaging the relationship, they would not have a problem.
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Yeah.
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So it’s that, you know, this parent has adequate parenting, this child has a good experience with this parent, but there’s the other parent that is manipulating.
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undermining the relationship so that the, you know, child may become
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fearful or overly aligned, or they… so they end up rejecting the parent, not, again, not because of their direct experiences with the parent, and not because of that parent’s, you know,
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own challenges or own parenting.
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Got it. So to break it down and to do my example again, so again, we’ve got dad and mom.
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And now mom doesn’t have any issues.
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Right.
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She’s, you know, she’s, uh…
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doesn’t have any substance abuse issues, doesn’t have mental health issues, she’s inadequate, capable, and loving parent.
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But dad is the one who is now, in a way, I guess, badmouthing.
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mom in front of the child.
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Um, so when dad does that, Dad, in a way, manipulating child to see mom as, like, the bad person.
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Right.
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The child now is like, no, I don’t want to spend time with you, Mom, and it has nothing to do with mom, it’s because the child is being so heavily.
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Yeah, that’s true.
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influence and manipulated it.
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the father.
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It’s a camp. Yeah.
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Hello?
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Yeah, it’s generally a full-on campaign. Um, yeah, and some, you know, we see it in a number of ways. We see it through false allegations of sexual abuse, where a child is, you know, been
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Um…
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told, so to speak, what happened to them, you know, by this other parent… by the parent that’s alienating.
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And so, doing the alienating behavior. So, you know, it’s just… it can be a whole gamut of ways that a parent, um, engages in those kinds of behaviors, but it ends up often where a child is
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you know, they gotta choose one parent or the other, you know? And so they will, uh, they can be manipulated in that way. Now, I want to be clear that is a very, very small slice of the folks that we see. It tends to be a very small, very small slice. Yeah, that is not.
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Really? Oh.
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By any means, the majority. What I will say, sometimes we have problems with language, because if we if PCCP is the category and a subcategory is parental alienation.
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Okay.
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There’s another word that we call or concept we call parental alienating behaviors.
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Oh, okay.
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And so that would be… that’s a subset of damaging behaviors that a parent engages in through the child.
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that can impact the child.
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But I would put parental alienation behaviors, parental alienating behaviors on a spectrum of, you know, like 1 to 10.
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So a child has been where it’s all parental alienation, that would be a tent. That’s a parent, you know, really, really campaigning, really doing a lot of things. But there’s a lot of lower level behaviors that we we will see those.
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in cases of where there’s parent-child contact problems.
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But they don’t rise all the way to the full level of parental alienating the child. So they’re not as the behaviors aren’t as severe. They might be some. And honestly.
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Okay.
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a lot of parents engage in… both parents engage in parental alienating behaviors in many ways. Both parents are, um… it’s not uncommon for both parents to badmouth the other parent to the child. I mean, technically, that’s…
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Right.
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of parental alienating behavior, right? We don’t want any parent to do that. But it’s most people, you know, they’re not trying to be a bad person, but they’re caught up in their own experience. And so they let things slide. They let things slip, right?
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Yeah. Right.
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So it really has to be, so we do see those kinds of behaviors and want as a, you know, working with these families, I’m always wanting to clean those up, but truthfully, we do see those from both sides where, you know, people are just, they’re making mistakes, but they’re not.
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Okay.
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trying to undermine the relationship and have, you know,
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know, only this child love only them, and 100% reject the other parent for their own emotional needs. That is.
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That’s not where most parents are.
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Wow, that’s… that’s, uh, so I didn’t… I didn’t realize… well, I guess I should have realized, but it just seems like in family law.
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You know, those high conflict cases that are just.
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you know, they wouldn’t be in court unless it’s high conflict, and that’s normally where if I’ve seen that parental alienating. The actual parental alienation.
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Okay.
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And to be open, I’ve…
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I’m at the tail end of a two-year divorce of a 25-year marriage and.
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My husband, my spouse, gay, engaged in parental alienating behavior.
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And, you know, just for the listeners out there,
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what it was.
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It was involving her child.
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Who was, when the process started, he was 16 years old, he was a junior in high school.
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It was involving him directly in the proceedings.
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Wow. Okay.
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Every single proceeding that happened.
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That he involved my child in, and it was you.
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And the blame was on me. Your mother did this. Your mother this, and it was…
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Aligning my child with him.
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And I was rejected.
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And it’s, it’s tough, it’s tough when you go from being a primary parent.
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to being the favored parent,
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to then being the excluding parent.
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Yeah.
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Where, you know, 3… where, like, a month would go by, and I would see my child for 2 hours.
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And he was 16, and he was driving, and it’s one of… he’s in one of those gray areas that… it’s hard.
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to have.
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Visits, but it’s…
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Yeah.
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It is.
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It’s, it’s tough. I had, I had, I had less time than someone who was going through addiction issues and had supervised visits.
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Yeah.
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So…
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Yeah, it’s it is really hard. Therapeutically, you know, when I work with families where a child is in that age group,
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Yeah.
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I think about their developmental stage and, you know, where are they at? Of all the things on their, you know, list of things to do in a day, do they want to deal with mom and dad’s stuff?
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Nope. You know?
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They want to do other stuff. And it’s really, it’s just a really difficult time developmentally to engage kids in a solution. They just want it all to go away. And that’s.
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It is.
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Oftentimes they’re problem solving mechanism. I’ll just ignore it.
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And then, and eventually it’s not going to be an issue and they’re right because in a couple years.
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I think maybe college or, you know, things will be different. And so, you know, it’s really hard. I have a difficult time engaging kids in that age group with…
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But future you is going to really be grateful that today you was part of the solution. You know, there are some kids do it, some kids buy in, some kids less so.
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Yeah.
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Well, and this is… this is what I realized, too, and I’m just telling the listeners out there, you know, it is an incredibly painful experience, and that’s… it wasn’t the marriage was ending that caused me, that I… that I was grieving. It was loss of my relationship with my son.
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Because I was the one that left the family home, because I had to get out.
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But I see now that, in a way, my son had to align with his father because he had no choice.
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He was in that home.
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And he was stuck in that home and in a way it was his own survival mechanism.
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Uh-huh. Okay.
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Not only that, I was the safe parent.
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Because my son knew, deep down inside that I loved him unconditionally.
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And that I would always be there for him.
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And that’s one thing I had to keep on reaching out.
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Yeah.
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telling him that I loved him.
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Um…
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Yeah.
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uh, just trying to…
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trying to see him, and so…
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So in that situation.
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You know, I just had to accept the fact that he was doing what he needed to do to survive.
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Yeah.
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C.
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It’s interesting how many kids are so rejecting of a parent, and then they’re so mad when that parent doesn’t try.
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Why? You know, why didn’t they why didn’t I didn’t even get a birthday card.
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Which I probably would have thrown away.
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They’re kidding.
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You know, and kids are so because they’re kids, you know, they want, they want to be invited. They don’t necessarily want to go to the party. And so, and it’s really hard for a parent. A lot of parents, one of the challenges that I see with parents is that there’s often what I would call counter rejecting behavior.
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Hmm. Yeah. Yeah.
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Um, you know, parents are human, they get their feelings hurt, they, um, you know, can engage in, oh, you rejected me, fine, you know, I… I’m upset too, you know? And it’s…
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human, and it’s really hard.
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can’t… it’s just not the best solution.
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There’s no good solution, right? But that’s not… that’s definitely not a good one.
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notes. You know, I think I’m lucky because what because I do what I do, I was able to connect with some.
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Other experienced individuals, um.
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For example, Karen Bunnell,
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Yeah.
00:18:57.000 –> 00:19:03.000
It’s really known in the Washington and here in Washington as being one of the forerunners of the.
00:19:03.000 –> 00:19:05.000
Gosh, a penis.
00:19:05.000 –> 00:19:06.000
collaborative.
00:19:06.000 –> 00:19:08.000
Well, being just a specialist, and…
00:19:08.000 –> 00:19:09.000
Yeah.
00:19:09.000 –> 00:19:11.000
parent, uh, parent-child coaching.
00:19:11.000 –> 00:19:12.000
Yes.
00:19:12.000 –> 00:19:20.000
And so she, she was the one that encouraged me, keep on reaching out to your child. It doesn’t matter if your child continues to reach at you, keep on reach, so.
00:19:20.000 –> 00:19:25.000
Folks, that’s what I’m telling you right now. If you’re in that position that you’re the rejected parent.
00:19:25.000 –> 00:19:29.000
Keep on reaching out to your child, keep on saying that you love them.
00:19:29.000 –> 00:19:34.000
Keep inviting them to do things, because your child does need that.
00:19:34.000 –> 00:19:36.000
You let your child know.
00:19:36.000 –> 00:19:38.000
that you love them.
00:19:38.000 –> 00:19:40.000
unconditionally, and um.
00:19:40.000 –> 00:19:46.000
Let them know that you’re… you’re proud of them. Like, I would tell my son, you know, I’m just proud of you for being
00:19:46.000 –> 00:19:48.000
an amazing person.
00:19:48.000 –> 00:19:57.000
I love the fact that you have such a generous and kind, caring spirit, so it’s not tied into
00:19:57.000 –> 00:19:58.000
Right.
00:19:58.000 –> 00:20:01.000
his achievements or something, because you did well in sports.
00:20:01.000 –> 00:20:07.000
So, let’s transition over to, in these justified rejection cases.
00:20:07.000 –> 00:20:17.000
going back to where maybe a parent has substance abuse, mental health problems, or they’re not there to be that… the appropriate caregiver or the show up, you know, there’s chaos.
00:20:17.000 –> 00:20:22.000
What’s the challenges that you see when there’s legitimate reasons.
00:20:22.000 –> 00:20:24.000
for child rejecting a parent,
00:20:24.000 –> 00:20:28.000
But the trauma…
00:20:28.000 –> 00:20:34.000
doesn’t reach the criteria for a CPS involvement or criminal abuse.
00:20:34.000 –> 00:20:36.000
Yeah.
00:20:36.000 –> 00:20:40.000
You know, um, we don’t…
00:20:40.000 –> 00:20:58.000
don’t have a good path. We have a really good path for, oh, your parenting skills weren’t very good and you made some mistakes, but your child, you know, you have some good, you know, a good relationship structure underneath with your child, and we think that you can
00:20:58.000 –> 00:21:00.000
Um,
00:21:00.000 –> 00:21:18.000
grow and develop skills and do better parenting with your child. There’s… we feel good, there’s hope for that. A lot of hope for that. Um, and then there’s this other subset where, um, a parent has, you know, mostly injured a child enough that the
00:21:18.000 –> 00:21:19.000
child says no. And.
00:21:19.000 –> 00:21:22.000
Yeah.
00:21:22.000 –> 00:21:33.000
I… my experience is that there is inherent pressure to find a way to reconnect these two.
00:21:33.000 –> 00:21:39.000
Um, although we don’t have a very good path for it. So…
00:21:39.000 –> 00:21:56.000
Um, in trauma-informed care, the person that’s been wounded or injured is the one that leads the process, right? I seek help, I seek treatment and recovery to heal.
00:21:56.000 –> 00:22:04.000
And then I’m going to be in charge of the outreach.
00:22:04.000 –> 00:22:05.000
in, um…
00:22:05.000 –> 00:22:07.000
Okay.
00:22:07.000 –> 00:22:19.000
in the world of divorce, that’s really hard, right? Because they’re… the court wants to put a schedule on it, they want to put a process in place, and it’s…
00:22:19.000 –> 00:22:35.000
there’s just… there’s just pressure to come up with a solution. If you have a 15 year old that’s saying, I don’t want to see my dad, my dad was violent and, you know, I had all these bad experiences and.
00:22:35.000 –> 00:22:37.000
I just don’t want to. And I’m not going to.
00:22:37.000 –> 00:22:44.000
But the violence doesn’t rise to the level where we triggers CPS or criminal case.
00:22:44.000 –> 00:22:45.000
It doesn’t rise to a level of a criminal case. Yeah.
00:22:45.000 –> 00:22:49.000
Maybe it’s not going.
00:22:49.000 –> 00:22:55.000
Right.
00:22:55.000 –> 00:22:56.000
Right.
00:22:56.000 –> 00:23:02.000
Yeah, maybe, um, you know, I would say domestic violence that is not uncommon in our families, it’s less common. We let domestic violence is sadly, relatively common in our families.
00:23:02.000 –> 00:23:05.000
Okay.
00:23:05.000 –> 00:23:13.000
Um, and within that, there’s a subset of kids that say, because of the way that you behaved, I don’t want contact with you.
00:23:13.000 –> 00:23:27.000
Right. Yeah.
00:23:27.000 –> 00:23:28.000
Protector. Right.
00:23:28.000 –> 00:23:34.000
Um, you know, for the parent… for the other parent, if there’s been domestic violence, the court’s like, oh yeah, we’re not, we’re not going to make you have contact with that parent. Let’s issue, you know, a protection order or whatever. Um, but then with kids, they look for, well, how can I keep the kids safe?
00:23:34.000 –> 00:23:42.000
But still allow for contact. And I always want to figure out how to preserve.
00:23:42.000 –> 00:23:43.000
You know, how do you create this physical and emotional safety, so limit the bad, but preserve, you know, access to the good.
00:23:43.000 –> 00:23:52.000
Yeah. Right. Okay.
00:23:52.000 –> 00:24:03.000
Um, but if you look at domestic violence and coercive control as an aspect of that, you have someone, you have a parent, that’s been violent and controlling.
00:24:03.000 –> 00:24:08.000
Now you have a child who’s pushing back on that, saying, I’m not, I don’t want to be controlled anymore. I’m going to say no. And again, trauma-informed care would be, oh yeah, you, you need to be able to choose the path forward because you.
00:24:08.000 –> 00:24:17.000
Yeah. Okay.
00:24:17.000 –> 00:24:27.000
As a victim of domestic violence, and isn’t this child also a victim, that’s what we would want for them.
00:24:27.000 –> 00:24:28.000
Um…
00:24:28.000 –> 00:24:30.000
Mm-hmm.
00:24:30.000 –> 00:24:38.000
So, the, so the challenge is, how do we… how do we put the kid on a path to healing?
00:24:38.000 –> 00:24:44.000
the parent on a path to intervention, and then at what point?
00:24:44.000 –> 00:24:45.000
we figure out how to get them back together.
00:24:45.000 –> 00:24:47.000
Okay. Right. Okay.
00:24:47.000 –> 00:25:02.000
Right? And so, I don’t have a very good answer for that other than, um, it’s, it’s just, I think for me, it’s just the trickiest place because we societally.
00:25:02.000 –> 00:25:13.000
We are more and more wanting to hear from our kids. We want them to put boundaries. We don’t want them to just do what adults tell them to do. You know, we want our kids to speak up, right? And then.
00:25:13.000 –> 00:25:18.000
Yeah.
00:25:18.000 –> 00:25:27.000
And then we have a problem that they have with the parent, and then we’re not we’re just not really sure what the best path is.
00:25:27.000 –> 00:25:40.000
And if it weren’t for family court, probably they could go away and just ultimately figure out a solution. The parent could get treatment and he, you know, change, the kid could get healing, and then…
00:25:40.000 –> 00:25:43.000
Um, find their way back together.
00:25:43.000 –> 00:25:44.000
Okay. Yeah.
00:25:44.000 –> 00:25:59.000
a lot of ifs, right? And so I’m just speaking out into the, you know, wilderness here that this is where it gets it’s just very tricky. And if there had been, if it had risen to the level of a criminal case,
00:25:59.000 –> 00:26:00.000
Right. Yeah.
00:26:00.000 –> 00:26:15.000
Then it wouldn’t be in question if the kid, you know what what this child had to do. Did they have to have contact? We do have kids that respond to forced contact through self-harm or threats of self-harm.
00:26:15.000 –> 00:26:16.000
And one of the.
00:26:16.000 –> 00:26:18.000
Oh,
00:26:18.000 –> 00:26:30.000
Because we’re in the litigation space, a challenge is always who’s driving that? Is it the parent that doesn’t support contact between?
00:26:30.000 –> 00:26:42.000
child and the rejected parent, right? Are they are they encouraging the kid, you know, to self-harm or to act out or to do something so that they don’t have
00:26:42.000 –> 00:26:47.000
You know, it’s a solution for the parent and the aligned child.
00:26:47.000 –> 00:26:48.000
We don’t… we can’t tell. And so, I think…
00:26:48.000 –> 00:26:54.000
Hmm.
00:26:54.000 –> 00:27:05.000
I think, um, when… as therapists, when I have, um, contact with the kid that I feel like their mental health is not
00:27:05.000 –> 00:27:12.000
stable like they might, you know, they might self-harm, they are acting out, you know, there’s some vulnerability that they have.
00:27:12.000 –> 00:27:13.000
I am much more inclined to say, look, this kid just needs to be the focus. This kid’s mental health has to be the focus. And I’m going to worry about repair.
00:27:13.000 –> 00:27:21.000
Okay.
00:27:21.000 –> 00:27:36.000
a relationship with the rejected parent at a different time. That’s tomorrow’s problem. Today’s problem right now is how do we stabilize this child, get this child feeling safe and just…
00:27:36.000 –> 00:27:47.000
just solid, you know? So… so fortunately, therapeutically, I just… I feel like if I… of those two choices, there’s not a lot of great choices, but of those two choices, I do think that…
00:27:47.000 –> 00:27:53.000
There’s lots more and more reasons to.
00:27:53.000 –> 00:28:04.000
be conservative, frankly, and decide with ensuring the child’s stable mental health. And yes, sometimes that means a bad actor gets away with bad acting.
00:28:04.000 –> 00:28:16.000
Right? Like, another parent that’s mis… that’s not being fully supportive. Um, because we can’t… we can’t handle everything, and we don’t know everything. So, I…
00:28:16.000 –> 00:28:19.000
Sometimes…
00:28:19.000 –> 00:28:20.000
Bad things happen to good people, right? Kind of like your experience, right?
00:28:20.000 –> 00:28:24.000
Okay. Yeah. Right.
00:28:24.000 –> 00:28:27.000
And so we were just kind of in…
00:28:27.000 –> 00:28:34.000
we were talking under the umbrella of justify rejection cases.
00:28:34.000 –> 00:28:35.000
Yes.
00:28:35.000 –> 00:28:37.000
Right? Okay. So…
00:28:37.000 –> 00:28:39.000
The next… that’s very…
00:28:39.000 –> 00:28:42.000
I know, such, it’s such a
00:28:42.000 –> 00:28:46.000
her dilemma. What about…
00:28:46.000 –> 00:28:52.000
What are your concerns regarding cases who have, with kids who have experienced trauma?
00:28:52.000 –> 00:28:55.000
or abuse at the hands of a caregiver.
00:28:55.000 –> 00:29:05.000
But yet, and court order to maintain that contact with that parent. So we’re kind of dovetailing off what we just talked about.
00:29:05.000 –> 00:29:23.000
My thoughts about that? I think that when we can when we can get a child, when we can facilitate a child to having contact with a parent, I want to do that. I do want to rally
00:29:23.000 –> 00:29:24.000
Okay.
00:29:24.000 –> 00:29:27.000
folks, um, the parent, the child, whoever’s in the parents orbit, to support that.
00:29:27.000 –> 00:29:29.000
Um…
00:29:29.000 –> 00:29:46.000
I do, and again, there’s a lot of parents… nobody’s ever the worst mistake they ever made, right? Like, that’s just not who people are. And so a lot of people make mistakes, and they can, um, learn from that and come back from that. I do believe parents love their children at their core, right? And they want to be a
00:29:46.000 –> 00:29:47.000
parent for that child. And so I have a lot of
00:29:47.000 –> 00:29:53.000
Okay.
00:29:53.000 –> 00:29:56.000
hope and faith.
00:29:56.000 –> 00:30:07.000
and the tools to bring people back together. I think the most difficult part is when a child is just flat out saying no, not good.
00:30:07.000 –> 00:30:15.000
to do it and and they’re court ordered yeah and they
00:30:15.000 –> 00:30:16.000
You know, so…
00:30:16.000 –> 00:30:17.000
And they’re court-ordered.
00:30:17.000 –> 00:30:27.000
A lot of… a lot of kids… I actually wish we knew the percentage of kids, right, that was… that was just flat out refusing, you know, and the… the…
00:30:27.000 –> 00:30:30.000
Aligned parent is saying, I’m doing everything I can. I can’t, I can’t get them there.
00:30:30.000 –> 00:30:38.000
Right. Especially when they’re teenagers, like a 16 year old boy.
00:30:38.000 –> 00:30:43.000
Yeah, yeah, I don’t.
00:30:43.000 –> 00:30:47.000
I think that if we, if, if we in the
00:30:47.000 –> 00:30:50.000
Um, field had…
00:30:50.000 –> 00:30:56.000
great confidence that the aligned parent or the favored parent had done everything that they could.
00:30:56.000 –> 00:30:57.000
Right. Right.
00:30:57.000 –> 00:31:11.000
And the kid just wasn’t gonna do it. And I’ve said things to parents like, okay, well, if your child refuses contact with the other parent, you can’t force them, but you can’t reward them. Your job then is they don’t get to stay home and play video games.
00:31:11.000 –> 00:31:15.000
Uh, yeah, yeah, sure. Right. Go out with your friends.
00:31:15.000 –> 00:31:33.000
Right? Like, they don’t get to stay home. Yeah, exactly. This is not… they are not following your, um, you know, your expectations for them. So how do you respond to that, right? So, I do think that, you know, and if I had 100% confidence that a parent was doing
00:31:33.000 –> 00:31:40.000
Those things, and the child still wasn’t gonna go, then.
00:31:40.000 –> 00:31:49.000
And then, you know, that’s a different place than if you feel like the other parent, you know, just the favorite parent just isn’t supportive. And if you’re a rejected parent, you are never going to believe that favored parent is 100% supportive.
00:31:49.000 –> 00:31:55.000
Right. Right.
00:31:55.000 –> 00:32:01.000
Right? So everybody has slightly different points of view.
00:32:01.000 –> 00:32:02.000
Mm-hmm.
00:32:02.000 –> 00:32:09.000
You have a kid at the center, you know, and so it’s all I always.
00:32:09.000 –> 00:32:22.000
Don’t hesitate when I think about, and I will admit, I call the legal process a meat grinder for families. I just think that all the pressures that go on the parents that come down to the kids.
00:32:22.000 –> 00:32:25.000
I don’t always know what the right thing is.
00:32:25.000 –> 00:32:26.000
Candidly. So
00:32:26.000 –> 00:32:30.000
Yeah. Right. Well, wouldn’t, okay, so, so we’re in that situation, right?
00:32:30.000 –> 00:32:36.000
were the favored parent, the aligned parent, is doing everything they can to get the kid to go.
00:32:36.000 –> 00:32:38.000
And this kid, who’s a teenager,
00:32:38.000 –> 00:32:42.000
Does it want to go to the rejected parent because.
00:32:42.000 –> 00:32:50.000
that there’s a viable… it’s a justified rejection, like you were saying. So, let’s just say that that parent was emotionally and verbally abusive.
00:32:50.000 –> 00:32:53.000
And the child’s like, no, I don’t, I don’t want to go.
00:32:53.000 –> 00:33:01.000
Now, wouldn’t the, couldn’t a solution be that the child and that rejected parent do do counseling together?
00:33:01.000 –> 00:33:05.000
or individual counseling.
00:33:05.000 –> 00:33:06.000
Okay.
00:33:06.000 –> 00:33:08.000
I mean, it could be if, if the child is willing to consent to that.
00:33:08.000 –> 00:33:09.000
Okay.
00:33:09.000 –> 00:33:15.000
Um, you know, a lot of kids are.
00:33:15.000 –> 00:33:17.000
Ethically.
00:33:17.000 –> 00:33:22.000
We’re, you know, they’re supposed to consent, right? You can, you can say yes or no to treatment.
00:33:22.000 –> 00:33:23.000
Mm-hmm. Okay.
00:33:23.000 –> 00:33:31.000
And so, if a kid says, no, I’m not going to do it, they’re not actually a party to the case.
00:33:31.000 –> 00:33:32.000
Hmm. Right.
00:33:32.000 –> 00:33:36.000
Right? They’re not under court order. And so as
00:33:36.000 –> 00:33:41.000
As a therapist, if a child says I’m not, I’m not going to participate.
00:33:41.000 –> 00:33:43.000
I can’t make them, right? And so in this, you know, this happens in…
00:33:43.000 –> 00:33:47.000
Yeah. All right.
00:33:47.000 –> 00:33:51.000
cases where it’s more more
00:33:51.000 –> 00:34:00.000
Mixed, you know, more hybrid, right? Where it’s some bad parenting or poor some alcohol unskilled, some unskilled parenting and some, you know, unskilled responding by the other parent, right? Like it’s the waters are a little muddy.
00:34:00.000 –> 00:34:07.000
Yeah.
00:34:07.000 –> 00:34:12.000
Again, you have a child that’s saying, you know, I’m not going to do this.
00:34:12.000 –> 00:34:15.000
And, um…
00:34:15.000 –> 00:34:19.000
in the… as they’re, you know, when they’re 16 and older,
00:34:19.000 –> 00:34:26.000
I myself have greater reluctance to.
00:34:26.000 –> 00:34:30.000
to engage in behavior that I feel is coercive to a child, right? To really pressure them, or to, you know, if you… if I can’t find a way for a kid to buy in.
00:34:30.000 –> 00:34:37.000
Okay.
00:34:37.000 –> 00:34:45.000
Then, you know, it’s tough. And I have a, like one family, I have a teen that’s 17 and I’ve asked, you know, here’s what I think I can help you with, with, you know, your parent.
00:34:45.000 –> 00:34:54.000
Wow. Right. Yeah.
00:34:54.000 –> 00:35:05.000
I might, you might not feel like you ever want to have contact with your parent. You’ll probably have a little though throughout your life, right? You have a sibling, there’ll be holidays or whatever.
00:35:05.000 –> 00:35:07.000
Yeah.
00:35:07.000 –> 00:35:14.000
We have some, and maybe the best thing that we can get for you out of this process is for you to develop skills to
00:35:14.000 –> 00:35:16.000
manage when you do have contact with the parent. When you do have to spend time. So to limit the vulnerability to maximize your ability to get something good and then to be able to leave, you know, when you’re done with it.
00:35:16.000 –> 00:35:30.000
Oh, yeah, great. Yeah.
00:35:30.000 –> 00:35:45.000
And if that’s that to me, that’s worth helping you get if that’s a skill you would like to acquire. And so far, this 17 year old is buying in. Not gung ho.
00:35:45.000 –> 00:35:47.000
Like, yeah, I’m totally into this, but I’m not saying no. And I’ll take that.
00:35:47.000 –> 00:35:54.000
Yeah. I like that. I mean, that’s a good way to.
00:35:54.000 –> 00:35:58.000
tell your child, in terms of the counseling.
00:35:58.000 –> 00:36:03.000
Like, look, this is to help you do… like, I know you’re upset with your, you know, with the other parent.
00:36:03.000 –> 00:36:11.000
And this counseling, this meeting with the therapist, is to help you develop skills.
00:36:11.000 –> 00:36:12.000
Yeah.
00:36:12.000 –> 00:36:13.000
And we all need skills to
00:36:13.000 –> 00:36:18.000
to handle life and situations and problems.
00:36:18.000 –> 00:36:19.000
Yeah.
00:36:19.000 –> 00:36:24.000
Well, in a way, to develop skills, particularly to handle this parent.
00:36:24.000 –> 00:36:28.000
Because it’s all about, um, like you said, vulnerability, emotional dysregulation.
00:36:28.000 –> 00:36:29.000
Mm-hmm.
00:36:29.000 –> 00:36:32.000
When I’m around that parent, and what can I do?
00:36:32.000 –> 00:36:35.000
Where if I’m in that space, I can be
00:36:35.000 –> 00:36:39.000
ground it and steady and stable.
00:36:39.000 –> 00:36:40.000
Yeah, yeah.
00:36:40.000 –> 00:36:41.000
and feel secure.
00:36:41.000 –> 00:36:46.000
Yeah, what I wish I could tell kids was this, this personality that you’re avoiding.
00:36:46.000 –> 00:36:52.000
Yeah.
00:36:52.000 –> 00:36:54.000
True!
00:36:54.000 –> 00:36:57.000
Yeah.
00:36:57.000 –> 00:36:58.000
There you go.
00:36:58.000 –> 00:37:00.000
You will, you will, this personality will find you for the rest of your life and other people in other forms. It’s not, it doesn’t go away. So, you know, and I get it, you don’t want to deal with this today.
00:37:00.000 –> 00:37:01.000
Yeah.
00:37:01.000 –> 00:37:06.000
You know, and that’s fine, but it, it, you know, it’s not just that.
00:37:06.000 –> 00:37:08.000
that parent like it genuinely is.
00:37:08.000 –> 00:37:10.000
Yeah.
00:37:10.000 –> 00:37:18.000
a pattern of coping that will just keep presenting itself to you.
00:37:18.000 –> 00:37:22.000
So you might as well just deal with it now, because it’s not gonna go away.
00:37:22.000 –> 00:37:24.000
That’s correct.
00:37:24.000 –> 00:37:25.000
A lot of therapy.
00:37:25.000 –> 00:37:37.000
You’re gonna save yourself a lot of therapy dollars later on, you know, for… you could, right? So, um, you know, and some kids are, yeah, they kind of get it. They’re like, yeah, yeah, I all right. It does they feel like.
00:37:37.000 –> 00:37:40.000
Yeah.
00:37:40.000 –> 00:37:46.000
Hmm.
00:37:46.000 –> 00:37:47.000
Spicy. Yeah.
00:37:47.000 –> 00:37:51.000
It’s probably best for me. This is probably a good idea. And some other kids are what I call spicy, and they’re just angry. Yeah, they’re just, you know, they’re angry, they don’t want to deal with it.
00:37:51.000 –> 00:37:52.000
Ah.
00:37:52.000 –> 00:37:55.000
strong feelings and um…
00:37:55.000 –> 00:37:57.000
So…
00:37:57.000 –> 00:38:07.000
And I’ll so a small subset of the cases that we see are justified rejection, but a lot of them are more.
00:38:07.000 –> 00:38:12.000
parents and a parent and a child that had a number of bad interactions.
00:38:12.000 –> 00:38:18.000
And that can be solved, you know, that can be remedied.
00:38:18.000 –> 00:38:21.000
Um.
00:38:21.000 –> 00:38:27.000
trying to find the sweet spot of is the child still amenable to this process and amenable by age or by personality or anger, what, you know, whatever it is, will they?
00:38:27.000 –> 00:38:37.000
Okay.
00:38:37.000 –> 00:38:53.000
buy into this? And will there, you know, favored parent also be supportive and say, this is really better for you long term, right? And I honestly, I do find that most… I find most parents do
00:38:53.000 –> 00:39:01.000
do express a wish for their child to have a good relationship with the other parent.
00:39:01.000 –> 00:39:05.000
They, the other parent doesn’t feel that.
00:39:05.000 –> 00:39:06.000
They don’t… they don’t believe it, you know, which is fair. It’s litigation. Everybody’s against each other.
00:39:06.000 –> 00:39:11.000
Yeah. Okay. Yeah, it is.
00:39:11.000 –> 00:39:16.000
And, uh, you said it appropriately, it is. It’s family court system.
00:39:16.000 –> 00:39:22.000
When families are in conflict, it’s a meat grinder, and we don’t have perfect solutions.
00:39:22.000 –> 00:39:23.000
Uh-oh.
00:39:23.000 –> 00:39:27.000
This is not good. So I know.
00:39:27.000 –> 00:39:32.000
Yes.
00:39:32.000 –> 00:39:33.000
Yeah, yeah.
00:39:33.000 –> 00:39:37.000
We’re trying, though. We do try and that’s what I do like about, you know, the system, and I like that with, you know, the trainings that I’ve given, that I’ve gone to, about all this, I mean, people genuinely care. This is a really common problem. It’s a really common problem, and people care because they
00:39:37.000 –> 00:39:42.000
They do.
00:39:42.000 –> 00:39:52.000
They don’t, they hate these cases, but people care because it’s touched them, right? Like a lot of people have had this experience or they know someone who is having it and it’s, yeah, it’s just it’s pretty, pretty common.
00:39:52.000 –> 00:40:04.000
True. And this is a tough line to be in and you don’t do this work unless you care.
00:40:04.000 –> 00:40:12.000
I would agree. Yeah. I hope we all do work that we care about, but there is, for me, I always.
00:40:12.000 –> 00:40:23.000
I like work that I call chewy, where it’s like engages your brain and you got to think about it and it’s not easy necessarily, you know, it’s not just plug and play, but.
00:40:23.000 –> 00:40:24.000
Yeah.
00:40:24.000 –> 00:40:35.000
I’m always going back to the drawing board with like, what about this family? You know, what, what would work for them kind of thing.
00:40:35.000 –> 00:40:38.000
You know, it does engage me, I do care.
00:40:38.000 –> 00:40:43.000
Yeah. Do you have any, I mean, you’ve been doing this for 20 years, over 20 years.
00:40:43.000 –> 00:40:52.000
Do you have any, um, I don’t know, I guess any final thoughts or insights you want to share about your practice and.
00:40:52.000 –> 00:40:56.000
how parents can… parents who are caught in this dynamic.
00:40:56.000 –> 00:41:00.000
of these parent-child contact problems, PCCP.
00:41:00.000 –> 00:41:09.000
What would you say, I guess, to the parent who is the, the rejected parent?
00:41:09.000 –> 00:41:10.000
Yeah.
00:41:10.000 –> 00:41:11.000
Oh.
00:41:11.000 –> 00:41:12.000
Can I share a success story?
00:41:12.000 –> 00:41:13.000
Oh, please!
00:41:13.000 –> 00:41:20.000
Please.
00:41:20.000 –> 00:41:21.000
Okay.
00:41:21.000 –> 00:41:28.000
Okay, good. So, um, I have a success story that, um, was really early on in my work with families. So, I don’t know, pretty early on. And, um, it was a family where, you know,
00:41:28.000 –> 00:41:40.000
You know, divorce mom, dad, two kids, and there had been domestic violence. There was just a lot of high conflict. This is a family that needed like a parenting coordinator to help them, you know, make agreements. And it was.
00:41:40.000 –> 00:41:43.000
Wow.
00:41:43.000 –> 00:41:59.000
A couple of parenting evaluations, like there was a lot, a lot of problems. And the mom was the favorite parent and she reached out to me.
00:41:59.000 –> 00:42:04.000
You years ago, so it was maybe, maybe like 10 years on.
00:42:04.000 –> 00:42:05.000
And she just said, look, I just want you to give an update. Here we are on a beach in Hawaii, and it’s me, my new husband, my two kids, my ex, his girlfriend. Yeah. And we’re all, you know, have.
00:42:05.000 –> 00:42:21.000
What?
00:42:21.000 –> 00:42:26.000
Oh, yeah.
00:42:26.000 –> 00:42:27.000
Yeah.
00:42:27.000 –> 00:42:31.000
a great time, um, you know, something happened over the amount of time that we worked together where my ex just, you know, just things changed and we were able to work together. He’s come, he stayed in my house, he watched the kids, you know, when I traveled.
00:42:31.000 –> 00:42:40.000
Okay. Wow.
00:42:40.000 –> 00:42:42.000
Um, it’s just…
00:42:42.000 –> 00:42:50.000
Everything has changed. And again, here we are in this, on this Hawaii beach. And.
00:42:50.000 –> 00:43:09.000
It’s a case where there was nothing I could have ever seen in that case where I could have thought, well, that’s going to happen, right? In fact, everything was pointing the other direction. And it was such a treat for her to reach out, you know, and to send me that kind of.
00:43:09.000 –> 00:43:11.000
Here’s how we’re ending kind of thing. But so I think what I would, so I guess maybe that does lead me into what I would tell people is that you really don’t know where things are going to end up.
00:43:11.000 –> 00:43:21.000
Yeah. Okay.
00:43:21.000 –> 00:43:28.000
I think a lot of parents are really attached to the childhood period of their children.
00:43:28.000 –> 00:43:30.000
Yes. Uh-huh.
00:43:30.000 –> 00:43:41.000
And… and I get it. I get it. There’s a lot of, a lot there. Everybody wants to be part of that, the influence, the guiding, the experiences, all that good stuff.
00:43:41.000 –> 00:43:51.000
Your child’s lifespan, you’re gonna know your child as an adult for far longer than you’re gonna know your child during their childhood. And so I really
00:43:51.000 –> 00:43:52.000
really, I really want people to take the long view. I’m always, what I tell people is I’m trying to preserve a space.
00:43:52.000 –> 00:44:07.000
True. True.
00:44:07.000 –> 00:44:08.000
Right.
00:44:08.000 –> 00:44:17.000
you to a path for you to continue to have a relationship with this child. I might not be able to get you the, you know, the time, the contact, everything that you want right now, but I want to preserve space so that, you know, you can have the rest of your life as knowing your child as an adult.
00:44:17.000 –> 00:44:32.000
And them having, you know, then obviously when everybody’s an adult, even though you’re a parent-child, the dynamics do change, right? Adult children get to say what they want, what they don’t want, what they’ll allow, what doesn’t work for them, how they want to spend time with you.
00:44:32.000 –> 00:44:42.000
I tell parents, be the person your kid wants to spend time with, right? Like that’s your job. Just be somebody that they want to spend time with.
00:44:42.000 –> 00:44:45.000
And…
00:44:45.000 –> 00:44:46.000
Uh…
00:44:46.000 –> 00:44:47.000
Cool.
00:44:47.000 –> 00:44:52.000
the greatest degree, you know, try to let go of the…
00:44:52.000 –> 00:45:00.000
the resentment, you know, against the other parent, and the fear, which is the hard part, really hard.
00:45:00.000 –> 00:45:01.000
But, you know, when I when I read about family estrangement and, you know, the the research, as I understand it, is that most most people do find a way back.
00:45:01.000 –> 00:45:14.000
Yeah.
00:45:14.000 –> 00:45:15.000
Yeah. Right.
00:45:15.000 –> 00:45:24.000
I can’t tell you how much time it’ll take. I can’t tell you when it’s going to be or what it’s going to be over, but there are, there are inflection points in people’s lives where they…
00:45:24.000 –> 00:45:27.000
they become more open.
00:45:27.000 –> 00:45:32.000
You know, and ready to do things that they weren’t ready to before.
00:45:32.000 –> 00:45:33.000
So that’s what I want. I want people to take the long view.
00:45:33.000 –> 00:45:38.000
Yes. Yeah, and I just want to…
00:45:38.000 –> 00:45:43.000
Sure is success story based on my own personal experience and.
00:45:43.000 –> 00:45:49.000
After being estranged from my son for a year, and this is even having a guardian litem come in and make a report,
00:45:49.000 –> 00:45:57.000
And the guardian Latinum went against the Court’s 50-50 parenting plan and said, my child should be with the father full-time.
00:45:57.000 –> 00:46:01.000
Which was ridiculous because that’s just a whole nother thing of just.
00:46:01.000 –> 00:46:02.000
Wow.
00:46:02.000 –> 00:46:06.000
The father just heavily manipulating the child so much.
00:46:06.000 –> 00:46:08.000
Okay, but we’re not even gonna go down there.
00:46:08.000 –> 00:46:11.000
But after a year of being estranged from my son,
00:46:11.000 –> 00:46:18.000
Because I kept on showing up for my son, I kept on reaching out to him, telling him that I loved him, wanting to get together.
00:46:18.000 –> 00:46:21.000
And if you, you know, showing up to his events,
00:46:21.000 –> 00:46:23.000
The sporting events and such and
00:46:23.000 –> 00:46:25.000
Trying to be that safe space.
00:46:25.000 –> 00:46:29.000
was that, um, he reached… this is… he reached out to me.
00:46:29.000 –> 00:46:32.000
Um, one night and said, Mom, are you free for dinner?
00:46:32.000 –> 00:46:40.000
And I said, son, yes I am. You want to go to dinner with me? Wow, yay, that’s so great! My son tells me.
00:46:40.000 –> 00:46:42.000
Mom, if you’re gonna be weird about it, just forget it.
00:46:42.000 –> 00:46:44.000
Right.
00:46:44.000 –> 00:46:46.000
Yeah, I know, but…
00:46:46.000 –> 00:46:47.000
Because I was so excited.
00:46:47.000 –> 00:46:49.000
it back.
00:46:49.000 –> 00:46:50.000
Yeah.
00:46:50.000 –> 00:46:54.000
But it finally, like, reached out to me and said, are you free for dinner?
00:46:54.000 –> 00:46:56.000
So it took a year, but
00:46:56.000 –> 00:46:59.000
We, we re-reconciled and.
00:46:59.000 –> 00:47:04.000
I just went on my first vacation with my 2 boys to Hawaii.
00:47:04.000 –> 00:47:05.000
Nice.
00:47:05.000 –> 00:47:10.000
For 2 weeks, a couple of, a couple weeks ago, and that was my first vacation.
00:47:10.000 –> 00:47:14.000
In two years since I left the family home.
00:47:14.000 –> 00:47:18.000
And of course, their father had multiple vacations, but it was.
00:47:18.000 –> 00:47:21.000
It was it was so good, and I.
00:47:21.000 –> 00:47:28.000
And I told myself, too, and again, if you’re in this, you… you do have to see a therapist help you process this, and that’s what helped me get through it.
00:47:28.000 –> 00:47:30.000
Yeah.
00:47:30.000 –> 00:47:31.000
seeing a therapist and.
00:47:31.000 –> 00:47:38.000
You know, being that person that I could dump on, so when I was able… when I was spending time with my kid, I wasn’t.
00:47:38.000 –> 00:47:44.000
openly trying to… I wasn’t bad-mouthing the father. I could just be there and be present. And also to.
00:47:44.000 –> 00:47:53.000
learned skills in twos, because one of the things my child was trying to ask what’s going on with the divorce, and I had to learn how to set boundaries and say, no, that doesn’t involve you.
00:47:53.000 –> 00:47:54.000
Yeah.
00:47:54.000 –> 00:47:55.000
They don’t like that.
00:47:55.000 –> 00:48:01.000
So see a therapist yourself if you’re the parent that’s rejected so you can get that support that you need.
00:48:01.000 –> 00:48:02.000
Yeah.
00:48:02.000 –> 00:48:04.000
to be their president, show up for your child in.
00:48:04.000 –> 00:48:07.000
One thing, too, that my therapist would tell me was that.
00:48:07.000 –> 00:48:09.000
You know, this is a small blip.
00:48:09.000 –> 00:48:11.000
in your child’s life.
00:48:11.000 –> 00:48:15.000
considering the many years that you have ahead.
00:48:15.000 –> 00:48:16.000
Yeah.
00:48:16.000 –> 00:48:17.000
And I kind of have onto that.
00:48:17.000 –> 00:48:18.000
Yeah.
00:48:18.000 –> 00:48:22.000
So, yeah, just.
00:48:22.000 –> 00:48:23.000
Yeah.
00:48:23.000 –> 00:48:27.000
Thank you so much, Jennifer. Thank you for your… just your words of wisdom and sharing your insights and your knowledge.
00:48:27.000 –> 00:48:31.000
You know, every time I hear you speak, I learn something new.
00:48:31.000 –> 00:48:33.000
And I feel, I grow in terms of
00:48:33.000 –> 00:48:34.000
Thank you. Thank you.
00:48:34.000 –> 00:48:41.000
My understanding and skills as an attorney in dealing with these parent-child contact problems.
00:48:41.000 –> 00:48:45.000
So, thank you.
00:48:45.000 –> 00:48:46.000
Oh, thank you.
00:48:46.000 –> 00:48:59.000
Yeah. Well, I’m… yeah, I just want to say I’m happy for your experience. I think that it’s, you know, you’re incredibly vulnerable just, you know, telling people what your experience is, and that’s… that’s hard to do. There’s a lot of shame around when a child rejects you.
00:48:59.000 –> 00:49:00.000
What’s on this.
00:49:00.000 –> 00:49:09.000
It just feels like it’s, you know, the worst thing and I got the support that you needed, you were steadfast with your child, and you know, you’re being rewarded for that.
00:49:09.000 –> 00:49:12.000
Yeah, well, and again, it’s, uh…
00:49:12.000 –> 00:49:15.000
Sometimes things happen, right?
00:49:15.000 –> 00:49:16.000
Yeah, absolutely.
00:49:16.000 –> 00:49:20.000
But you just got to keep on showing up, keep on showing up.
00:49:20.000 –> 00:49:21.000
Mm-hmm.
00:49:21.000 –> 00:49:26.000
And so now, if people wanted to contact you to either.
00:49:26.000 –> 00:49:30.000
to… for consulting.
00:49:30.000 –> 00:49:31.000
Yeah.
00:49:31.000 –> 00:49:33.000
coaching, problem solving, or therapy.
00:49:33.000 –> 00:49:34.000
Yeah.
00:49:34.000 –> 00:49:36.000
with parent-child contact problems, how do they get ahold of you?
00:49:36.000 –> 00:49:51.000
Uh, well, they can email me, they can email me at jylan, um, at comcast.net, or they can phone me up at 425-526-6556.
00:49:51.000 –> 00:49:52.000
Yeah, yeah.
00:49:52.000 –> 00:49:54.000
Oh, okay. And Kylan is spelt.
00:49:54.000 –> 00:49:56.000
Okay, go ahead and spell it for me.
00:49:56.000 –> 00:50:10.000
Oh yeah, yeah, sorry. What? There’s no standard spelling. It’s J. Kylan, so J-K-E-I-L-I-N at comcast.net.
00:50:10.000 –> 00:50:11.000
Perfect.
00:50:11.000 –> 00:50:12.000
Okay. Okay. And we’ll also put your information as well. And when the podcast in the.
00:50:12.000 –> 00:50:15.000
In the description.
00:50:15.000 –> 00:50:16.000
Nice.
00:50:16.000 –> 00:50:17.000
Well, um…
00:50:17.000 –> 00:50:20.000
You know, and oh, shoot, I forgot to ask, before we end, what’s the fun fact?
00:50:20.000 –> 00:50:26.000
That’s I always like to do this. What a fun fact that someone wouldn’t know about you?
00:50:26.000 –> 00:50:33.000
Oh my goodness. I am a certified scuba diver.
00:50:33.000 –> 00:50:35.000
Oh my gosh, that is so cool.
00:50:35.000 –> 00:50:36.000
Yeah, how fun is that?
00:50:36.000 –> 00:50:38.000
Wow!
00:50:38.000 –> 00:50:40.000
That’s amazing, that is very cool.
00:50:40.000 –> 00:50:41.000
It is cool.
00:50:41.000 –> 00:50:47.000
Well, again, thank you so much, Jennifer, for joining us today on our podcast.
00:50:47.000 –> 00:50:48.000
Absolutely.
00:50:48.000 –> 00:50:55.000
And, um, again, for our listeners out there, you can reach her at jakeylan at comcats.
00:50:55.000 –> 00:50:59.000
net, and we will have her phone number available too.
00:50:59.000 –> 00:51:08.000
And she is there to for consulting, coaching, problem solving, or therapy with your parent-child contact problems.
00:51:08.000 –> 00:51:11.000
Thank you again, Jennifer, and…
00:51:11.000 –> 00:51:20.000
for all my listeners out there, thank you again for joining us on another episode of the Occional Law Podcast, wherein we talk about anything and everything.
00:51:20.000 –> 00:51:25.000
That intersects in the area of family law and divorce. I am Lani Akiona.
00:51:25.000 –> 00:51:28.000
And don’t forget to hit that like and subscribe button.
00:51:28.000 –> 00:51:36.000
Thank you, and until the next episode, be well!