In this episode of the Akiona Law podcast, Ululani “Lani” Akiona speaks with addiction counselor Amber Hollingsworth, creator of Put the Shovel Down, to explore the hidden dynamics of addiction within relationships and its toll on the sober spouse. Drawing on two decades of clinical experience, Amber breaks down the cycles of defensiveness and denial, offering strategic communication tools, guidance on setting boundaries through natural consequences, and practical steps for families navigating recovery or divorce.
Episode Transcript
Intro 0:04
You’re listening to Akiona Law Podcast, where myself-founding attorney Lani Akiona interviews industry experts on everything you need to know about family law and divorce in Seattle, Washington. Akiona Law, caring for you in your time of crisis.
Lani Akiona 0:33
Hello and welcome to another episode of the Akiona Law Podcast, wherein we talk about anything and everything that intersects in the areas of family law and divorce. I am your host, Ululani “Lani” Akiona, and we’re going to dive right in today. Today I have we’re going to dive into an issue that deals with addiction. Basically, people struggling with addiction and the families that love them. And then today, who I have on with me to talk about that is Amber Hollingsworth. Now, Amber, Amber, welcome.
Amber Hollingsworth 1:08
Hey, thank you. Thanks for having me. I’m excited for our conversation.
Lani Akiona 1:12
Yeah, so am I. I’m totally, I’m totally excited to really dive into this. Now, Amber has over 20 years of experience helping people with addiction and more importantly, their families. And rather than viewing it as a hopeless condition that people are powerless over, Amber believes that addiction is often often a deeply ingrained pattern built on false beliefs that someone can be changed. And through her work, Amber has built this YouTube community of more than 800,000 subscribers. Her YouTube channel is called Put the Shovel Down, where she provides practical, compassionate guidance to individuals and their families navigating addiction and recovery. So thank you again, Amber, for joining us and talking about this important topic. So let’s just dive right in. What’s the number one comment that you hear most often?
Amber Hollingsworth 2:17
Like the thing I hear most often is, oh my gosh, I wish I knew this years ago. I would have done everything different.
Lani Akiona 2:25
Wow.
Amber Hollingsworth 2:26
Yeah. Yeah. And who’s that coming from? Is that coming from the family member? Comes from the family member usually, yeah. Because they’re like, you know, they listen to my content and they’re like, oh my gosh, I’ve done this all wrong. Yeah. And sometimes in some cases, it’s sort of too late. Maybe relationship’s over, or you know, there’s you know, the bridge has been burned sometimes.
Lani Akiona 2:48
Well, can you talk to us about what are what are some of the challenges that a sober spouse is dealing with a person who’s addicted?
Amber Hollingsworth 2:57
Well, there’s this like really predictable dynamic that takes place between two partners if one’s having an addiction. And it doesn’t even really matter what the addiction is so much, but you get this sort of um bad cop scenario, I guess is what I would call it. So what happens is, you know, when someone you love, you care about is going down this path, you’re watching them destroy their life and probably yours too, and maybe even your kids too, you know.
Your natural instinct is to want to, you know, like grab them by the shoulders and stink of them and say, Hey, what the heck are you doing? Like, you know, danger ahead, like stop, you know, you got a problem. And the the issue is when that happens, even if that person kind of knows that there’s a problem, and they usually secretly do, by the way, they they do deep down, they they don’t want to admit it to you usually for a long time, but they defend. It puts a person immediately on the defensive because that’s human nature, it’s the way we all are. Like when we get called out, even when we know we’re wrong, actually, especially when we know we’re wrong, we get defensive, and then what happens is we defend ourselves. And so that looks like you’re overreacting, you worry about everything.
I don’t drink near as much as my co-workers do. You think everyone’s an alcoholic because your daddy was an alcoholic, or whatever you found, you didn’t even that’s old. So they they start deflecting in any way possible, they minimize, they justify all these different things because they just feel defensive, because that’s what people do when they feel cornered, right? The problem with that is is as they’re saying those things to their partner, they’re convincing themselves, you know, you’ve heard the thing like, you know, if you say it enough, it’s true, right? And so now the person is saying it and thinking it, and not only that, why are they saying it to you in that moment, but even after the conversation’s ended, you if you could sort of hear inside, it’s like, I can’t believe she or he did that, and blah, blah, blah. And then it’s just this whole dialogue that goes on probably half the whole day about how you know the other person’s wrong and this isn’t that big of a problem, and they should get off their back and quit trying to control me. Blah, blah, blah. Yeah.
Lani Akiona 5:06
Stop trying to control me. Yeah, like I’m allowed. Right? Yes. I worked hard. I worked hard. I’m I’m bringing home the bacon, I’m putting food on the table, get off my back.
Amber Hollingsworth 5:16
Right. You never see any of the good things I do. You’re just focused on this one issue. Yeah, everybody has a thing, you’re not perfect either, right? This is the conversation that happens, and that’s why I say it’s like pretty predictable. Now, it depends on the person’s personality. Not everyone will say all those things out loud. Like if they’re people pleasing, they might say it, but I promise you they’re thinking it. And either which way it’s not helpful, right?
So this whole bad thing takes place where the person that’s struggling with addiction starts to see the other person as the villain in the story. Because behind the scenes, addiction, the like the food for addiction is resentment and self-pity. Right. It’s literally the food that it eats. And so when you’re coming at this person trying to help this person, they feel resentful about it and they feel sorry for themselves because they feel controlled and judged and criticized and unfairly accused, and all these other things. Okay, and then that just makes them lean more into their addiction and then justify it back and forth, back and forth. So then we got this pattern, and then the spouse, the non-addicted spouse, in order to combat that, they have this thought. They’re thinking, if I can just find enough evidence, and I’m gonna get all this evidence, I’m gonna record these videos, I’m gonna find the hidden paraphernalia, I’m gonna do all these things, and then if I present my partner with this evidence, and they’re gonna admit it. Yeah, it’s not gonna happen, people.
Like the more evidence you have is almost like worse because it’s like giving them more points to argue with, right? It’s just it’s like 400 rabbit holes to go down and try to disprove your evidence, right? So then, you know, this addictive person is telling the other person, well, you’re crazy, it’s not the way you think it is, blah, blah, blah. So now they’re not only presenting the evidence to try to make you admit you have an addiction, but they’re now they’re trying to make you um admit that they’re not crazy. And you get this like power struggle thing goes on for years and years and years, and keeps the problem happening way longer than necessary because now it’s a power struggle. Now it’s literally a war between these two people.
Lani Akiona 7:27
Right, because the the sober spouse is trying to say, you have a problem, and here’s all this evidence, and the spouse that has the addiction is like, no, I don’t, no, I don’t.
Amber Hollingsworth 7:37
Yeah, but well, they actually, if I I would actually say they’re thinking, yes, I do, I do have a problem, and that problem is you. They get fixated on the partner as the problem. And the reason I know this is because I’ve been working with the addictive people for 20 years, and when that scenario is going on, it’s all they can talk about, it’s all they can think about. You I cannot get them to talk anything about what’s going on with them as long as that power struggle is happening. You know, it’s just like they come in, they spend the whole time with me upset about how their partner’s reacting to them. They don’t realize that the partners’ behaviors and their reactions are really just a symptom of the problem, right? Like it’s a whole system issue.
Lani Akiona 8:14
You know what, too? I you know what it’s still true because when I was in uh uh when I was drinking in my head, it was it was, I mean, I knew I was drinking too much, but at the same time, it’s it’s his fault. It’s my ex-husband’s fault. If you were married to him, you’d drink too. Yeah, you you need a drink to this because he’s he’s a piece of work. And he’s treating me sheddy, and I feel horror about my and then that’s the thing too. If you were in, in a way, a toxic relationship, and so like with me, I felt like I I couldn’t stand it, so I needed to drink because I just needed to numb things out. That was my coping mechanism, but at the same time, there is a lot of shame and guilt about it too. So then it’s just a vicious cycle.
Amber Hollingsworth 9:01
Uh, you you bring up such a good point, and that is the person really does have a lot of shame and guilt about whatever it is that’s happening, and there is a large part of them that wants to change. They may not call themselves an addict and they may not want to go to treatment, but they want this problem to be better, they don’t like it. But when you’re coming at someone about it, they they have both feelings, you know, they feel defensive and they feel bad about it. When you come at someone about it, you’re pushing on one side, so naturally they get defensive.
Lani Akiona 9:33
100%.
Amber Hollingsworth 9:34
It’s like it’s the example I give is like if I’m let’s say I’m like have a problem being late to work, and I’m just like, I’m just known for being late, and I’ve already been late three times this month, and then I’m coming to work, I know I’m 10 minutes late. The whole car ride there, I’m like yelling at myself, I’m mad at myself, Amber, can’t you get your act together? What’s wrong with you? Growing, right? And I’m beating myself up. If I get to work and then my boss is, even if my boss says sort of like almost like not even mad, but like Amber, like what’s going on with your mornings like you’re getting here late, I am immediately gonna think, you understand, and it was construction, and you don’t have to drop your kids off in the drop-off line and it takes forever, and blah blah blah, you know, I’m gonna defend myself.
Yeah, even though I knew I shouldn’t, even though I was mad at my own stuff on the way to work. But when someone else calls us out, it’s just a natural human reaction. So if you’re dealing with this on either side, if you just stop and think about natural human psychology and get out of our fear place, because both people are acting from sort of fear, desperation, resentment, a bunch of negative emotions, right? Don’t make the best choices on how to interact with the issue and their partner.
Lani Akiona 10:47
Yeah, 100%. And it almost what comes into my head is um it’s almost like this this justified anger in terms of the attic. And that just kind of just ties in into just the the role of denial. I did we I mean, I feel like we kind of talked about the role of denial, but is there a specific is that a specific terminology, or can you talk about that?
Amber Hollingsworth 11:12
Yeah, I think most people feel like denial is black and white, either I know I have a problem or I don’t. But it’s really a lot more shades of gray, or as I like to say, like there’s layers. It reminds me of Shrek where he says like donkey or uh ogres have layers or whatever it is. That’s how denial is. There’s a y’all are crazy, I don’t have a problem at all, first layer, right? And then there’s this next layer, which is okay, like I might be, you know, going a little overboard, but I’m not like an addict or an alcoholic or something, right? And then there’s a okay, like I know I need to do something about this, but I don’t need help, I can do this myself, right?
There’s these layers that peel off, and there’s like, okay, I I’m totally serious, I’m gonna cut it back, and here’s my plan on cutting it back. It comes off one layer at a time, and if you understand that that’s the natural progression, you don’t get as angry with it because you’re like, all right, we’re on layer two, fabulous, we’re on layer three. Because to get there, we gotta move through these stages or layers to come out the other side. Everybody goes through them. And instead of fighting against them, if you lean into them, we can get through them a lot faster and come out the other side and figure this out so much quicker.
Lani Akiona 12:20
Yeah, you know what I know what you’re talking about. When my when my ex-husband used to say, attack me about my about my drinking, of course, right? There’s a first layer which is denial, and then the second layer was okay, yes, I I get it that I drink too much sometimes, but okay, I’m I’ll go and I’ll get uh substance abuse counseling. But really, but then it does, it really does take time.
Amber Hollingsworth 12:45
Yeah, it it does take time, and people sometimes spend years in what I call the bargaining phases, right? Which is like before someone’s gonna give something up totally, wow, it only makes sense. They’re gonna try to like manage it differently. Yeah. So they’re they’re gonna be like, I’m just gonna drink beer and not liquor, I’m just gonna do $5,000 worth of cocaine and not $10, I’m just gonna smoke on the weekends, I’m just gonna do this when my wife’s out of town, and that way it won’t upset her.
Like, you’re gonna go through all these ways of trying to control it. And family members see that and they get really angry because it’s like you don’t get it, and you’re not even trying, and you’re making these promises. But really, it’s it’s not a lie they’re telling you, it’s a lie they’re telling themselves. And the only way to get honest with themselves about it is to try it. There’s only one way to get on the other side, it’s to try all the bargains, right? It’s let me just drink on the weekends, let me just drink beer and not liquor, let me just as long as I don’t start before 6 p.m., as long as I drink light beer, you know, or let me buy the mini bottles, and that way I won’t overdrink. Like there’s all these like bargains, and it’s natural, it it’s just the natural process of it, and you have to let people go through it.
Lani Akiona 14:00
That’s interesting. So you so the the family member just has to let the addicted family member spouse just go through this bargaining process, then rather than trying to control and be like, no, don’t drink at all during the weekend.
Amber Hollingsworth 14:18
Right, because then what’s gonna happen is the person’s gonna do it regardless of what you say, okay? And so now what has happened is you got a lot more sneaking and lying, hiding. And from the family member perspective, that’s the thing that makes them the most upset is the lying and the hiding and the sneaking. It’s like more upsetting than anything else. And so this person’s do doing their bargaining process or whatever, and now they’re hiding it from you. And it just makes this whole thing it just keeps going and going and going.
When if someone tells you, like, okay, I’m just gonna drink on the weekends, it’s gonna be Thursday, you’re gonna see your partner, they’re gonna be going to the fridge, you know, or they’re pouring the glass of wine, or they’re getting the butt beer out, whatever, you know, like, and and you’re gonna in your head you’re thinking, You said you were only gonna drink on the weekends, and so what are you gonna do? You’re gonna say that. You’re gonna call them out for it naturally. It’s just Thursday. You promised, you said you were only gonna drink on the weekends. Well, the problem with that is is the whole purpose of this bargaining is so someone can see that it doesn’t work. They’re making a promise to themselves, they’re breaking their promise. They’re making a promise to themselves, they’re breaking their promise.
Lani Akiona 15:27
Okay.
Amber Hollingsworth 15:27
The worst thing you can do is intervene in that and make them stick to just drinking on weekends because now they’re like, I got it. Even though you’re like police guard dogging, like everything they do, you got cameras all over the house, you’re measuring the alcohol in the bottles, you do, and you know that they’re only keeping it together because you’re like literally keeping such a tight leash on it. Yeah, and so you have to like let people fail at that. Ah, yeah. And not only, I know that I what I say to family members is so upsetting because it’s not fair.
Say right now, it’s not fair. Is it nothing I say is fair, it just works. So I like to say, I’m not here to tell you what’s fair, I’m here to tell you what works. And so I’m prefacing that because I’m gonna say something that’s gonna make you even more upset if you’re the family member. Not only do you need to let that go down, okay, when it goes down and it doesn’t work, which it won’t, okay, you need to be empathetic towards them.
You need to say, you need to say, Oh man, I know you feel terrible. You never meant for that to happen, you know, you’re really serious about this. Because when you come at them like that, they naturally think, I know, I can’t keep doing this, this isn’t working, I gotta do something different, this whatever. They’re gonna think that, and they’re gonna say that because you’re you’re allowing the safe space for them to think that. If you’re like always say that and you never stick to it and it doesn’t work, and I don’t know why you keep trying to do that, and you need to go to treatment, what are they gonna say? You’re crazy, I’m only lying and sneaking and hiding because you’re a lunatic. You know, it’s it’s how do I get this person’s brain and mouth to go in the direction I want it to? But you have to stop and be very strategic about this. If you interact with it emotionally, it’s not gonna work out for you.
Lani Akiona 17:15
Oh my gosh. So so true, so true. I mean, in my head, I was just thinking a couple of things like okay, like the weekend. Well, Thursday, it’s uh it’s an extended weekend. Yeah, you know, we’re exactly it, it’s defending.
Amber Hollingsworth 17:28
And I’m not working tomorrow.
Lani Akiona 17:30
Yeah, right. I mean, to me, really, I’m like Thursday’s part of the weekend. We’re just it’s we’re starting a little bit early, but what’s the big deal?
Amber Hollingsworth 17:38
Yeah.
Lani Akiona 17:39
And I mean, I mean, come on, like bars and stuff, right? Thirsty Thursday, like exactly thing. You’re you’re and then another thing I thought of is that um the times that my ex-husband would tell me, you know, you’re drinking too much, you’re an alcoholic, you’re an alcoholic. And, you know, in my head, I’m like, how dare you call me an alcoholic? But you know, that just made me want to defend my addiction and disease even more. Because now you got me back up against a corner and I’m like this. And I’m like, no, no, no, no, no, no, because alcoholic has such a negative connotation to it, where in my head it’s a dirty word. Um, but it’s, you know, really the disease of alcoholism.
I mean, it’s a disease. Addiction is a disease. Brain chemistry is wired differently. If I take a sip of alcohol, it starts the craving where I want more and more and more. And then the mental obsession starts where I’m just obsessing over alcohol and it’s a disease, and I’m just my brain chemistry is wired differently. Um, and I’m gonna defend that disease at all costs. But if my ex-husband had come back and had maybe provided some empathy and compassion, I know that would have resonated me 100% a lot more. Because then what am I defending?
Amber Hollingsworth 18:57
Because you already had the desire to change inside of there, if you think about it. Yeah, I think you probably thought about it every day. And if he could come at you like that, it could have surfaced faster.
Lani Akiona 19:07
Yeah, it would have. No, it would have. It would have. Because I’m I’m just trying to defend, defend, defend, minimize, minimize and deny.
Amber Hollingsworth 19:17
But justify, gaslight, whatever you gotta do, right? Because you’re just backed into the corner. And so Yeah, you’re backed into a corner.
Lani Akiona 19:25
What am I gonna do? I’m not gonna myth that you’re right, heaven know.
Amber Hollingsworth 19:30
Right. I don’t know what you’re talking about. I made $300,000 a year, I pay every bill in this house. You’re you got the problem. You know, you just think of everything, you know, to defend yourself. And like I said, that keeps people stuck in denial so much longer.
Lani Akiona 19:46
It does. It does. So I I love that that you had mentioned that denials are there’s three different layers to denial, and rather is kind of lean into it. And so I guess in a way, that’s a that’s a strategy for for someone who wants to stay in the relationship.
Amber Hollingsworth 20:06
Exactly. If if you’re thinking, I really love this person, they really are a great person outside of this. We have a great relationship. I just know we can get on the other side of this. If your thinking is, I really want this person to get better, you lean into it, you use the str strategies, um, and that’s how you get it. And you know, you’re gonna have a lot of other people in your life. If you’re talking to anyone about this as the family member, you’re gonna be getting the opposite advice of what I’m telling you. You’re gonna be getting, I tell you what, I wouldn’t put up with that crap. I put him to the curb, you know, and like you need to set all these crazy boundaries and you need to tell him blah, blah, blah, and you need to give him the ultimatum.
You know, and and that’s okay because that’s your friends and your family, and that’s exactly the way they should feel because they don’t like to see you hurt, and it ticks them off to see somebody hurting you, and that’s the way your mama and your brother and your best friend should feel about it. That’s what they should say, but it’s not helpful or strategic, right? And honestly, it it makes you feel worse because everyone’s like, I don’t know why she puts up with that. And if you’re staying, then you feel like, God, I’m being that dumb person that’s just letting somebody walk all over me. I never thought I’d be this person. So then you feel guilty. So then you start lying and sneaking and hiding to your family and friends about what’s happening in the relationship because now you feel bad about what’s happening. Yeah, it’s just a mess.
Lani Akiona 21:32
What what do you have any other uh what other tips that you have in terms of the person who wants to stay in the relationship? Um how they can provide support or something. Yeah.
Amber Hollingsworth 21:45
You know, if you’re gonna stay in the relationship, one question you should ask yourself is like if this addiction was gone, is this relationship good? Not very often, but sometimes I’ll talk to someone, I’ll get the history, I’ll do a lot of consultations, and I’ll be like, Have they always been like that? And they’re like, Yeah. Have they always said those things? They’re like, Yeah. I’m like, I’m like literally thinking, I’m like, this ain’t worth saving. Like, oh and that doesn’t happen very often at all, but occasionally it does.
So you need to ask yourself like these things that are happening. Cause when you’re dealing with someone that has an addiction, they’re gonna look selfish, they’re gonna look narcissistic, they’re gonna look like they don’t care about anything but themselves, they’re gonna look like liar, cheater, blah blah blah, right? Yeah, and you need to think back to this person before they had this issue to ask yourself, are they really a narcissist? Because it’s hard to tell, right? Are they like a sociopath or whatever? You know, and the only way to answer that is to either think back to your experience with them before they had the issue, and if you didn’t know them before, then find somebody that did, you know, because sometimes it’s it’s not worth saying.
So that’s the first question you need to ask yourself, and then you keep yourself out of the bag eye roll. That’s what you don’t do. You don’t get yourself in the bag eye roll. Wait, wait, say that again. Do you don’t get yourself in the what? The bad guy roll. Like when you’re the one guy roll. The bad guy roll, yeah. The villain. Don’t let them make you the villain in the story. Oh you gotta be thinking, oh no, uh-uh-uh, you’re not pinning it on me. Like, so if you say the bad guy roll, their own shame, guilt, remorse, regret surfaces, and then they start moving into change.
Then you can, you know, you hear this thing all the time. People say, Well, you know, people have to want it for themselves, whatever. Yeah. And I have like a lot of mixed feelings about that because I’ve been on the front end of this thing forever, and most people, I mean, I I don’t I almost want to say all, but I just generally don’t say that about anything. But like almost everybody that gets sober gets sober initially for some external reasons, and that’s fine. I don’t want to go to jail, that’s a good reason. I don’t lose my kids, that’s a really good reason. I don’t want to have a beer gut, love it. Never heard a reason I don’t like, right? They and then they feel better and their life gets better, and then they’re like, dude, this side, you know, the grass is green over here, and then they decide to stay for themselves.
But people get sober for all kinds of reasons. Sometimes because they got thrown in jail and they make them made to get sober, like there’s lots of reasons why people get sober, and that’s okay. But you can help someone find their own motivations by instead of like instead of telling someone that they’re being a horrible person, that’s a big part of the reason why someone won’t acknowledge the problem. Because if you’re telling me I’m an alcoholic, that means I’m a bad mother. Translation, right? That means I’m a liar. And so it it’s not so much, it’s not even just that they can’t accept that I have a problem with alcohol, it’s like you’re trying to tell me I am this bad person. Right. I am not, you’re going against their narrative of who how they see themselves, right? And they’re really not gonna accept that. Yeah. And so what families do is they try to say, you’re being a terrible role model for our kids. Our kids don’t even like to be around you. You know, you’re this, you’re turning into your mama, you know. Yeah, so you’re saying all the things, trying to think this is gonna get their attention, you know, this they’re gonna see how serious this is, and this is gonna make them wanna change, but it doesn’t. It makes them want to say bad things to you, but um or just use more or whatever.
But if you say, like, let’s say the partner misses the kids, like a really important ballgame, right? And they and they always come, right? And they’re like, instead of saying, I can’t believe you did that, and blah, blah, blah, I reminded you three times, you say, Oh, I know you feel terrible. You’ve you’ve not missed any of these ball games, you always show up for the kids. What’s gonna happen? You’re gonna get the response of, I know, I can’t believe I did that. There’s something wrong with me, I gotta change. You’re gonna get the natural motivations inside of them. So it’s almost like instead of saying you’re a terrible parent, say, I know who you really are, you’re really a good parent. And it’s like you’re finding them, it’s almost like you’re reaching inside their heart and pulling them forward instead of trying to push this really negative information in because people resist that. You know, you’re trying to push this negative stuff and they don’t want that, and you just get a lot of barriers.
Lani Akiona 26:26
Yeah, true. One 100%. So that makes sense in terms of right, if you’re trying to push this, hey, essentially you suck because if you’re drinking, you missed your kid’s game, which then puts you in the bad guy rule. Excuse me, the villain. Again, I love that concept of coming from this place of empathy and understanding.
Amber Hollingsworth 26:46
Yeah, it’s very counter. I mean, it’s simple, right? Theory, right? But it’s it it goes, it’s gonna be the hardest thing ever. You’re gonna literally have to have lip surgery from biting your lip so much and keeping collie. Because it’s gonna be hard. If you’re like me, I mean I’m like sassy and sarcastic. My first thought is always, you know, sassy. So I always say, don’t ever listen to your first thought. Just say, hey, first thought, let that one pass. Give it a second, go with the second or the third or the fourth.
Lani Akiona 27:20
No, yeah. It’s uh pause. Pause. So you can respond and not not react.
Amber Hollingsworth 27:28
Right. And I know a lot of people listening are thinking, well, it’s the truth. You’re right. It is the truth, but is it effective? What’s your goal here? Because the question was if I want to stay and I want this person to get better, what do I do? This is the answer to that question, right? Yeah, is it fair? No. Is that other stuff true that you’re thinking? Yeah. You know, like you just gotta get really strategic on how you interact with it.
Lani Akiona 27:52
Yeah, I love that. I love that. You gotta get strategic on how to help this person. Is there any other thing uh in terms of the person who wants to stay in the relationship? What they can do?
Amber Hollingsworth 28:04
Well, one of the things you need to do for your own like sanity is you need to stop obsessing and making your whole life around their addiction. You know, they’re over here chasing this drug, this gambling pornography, whatever it is that they’re chasing, and you’re chasing them. You are addicted to them. You’re finding the evidence, you’re catching them, you’re like nagging them, you’re begging them, you’re crying, you’re watching the bank statements, you got a tracker on their car. Like your whole life is now revolving around catching them, proving to them, yeah, trying to get them help. And so it’s like now you’re sick, just like they’re sick. And not only does it not help them, but it literally can kill you. Like you, you will for sure develop an anxiety disorder.
And once you do that, your body’s gonna start falling apart. You’re gonna have every kind of like physical problem you’re gonna start having. You’re you’re literally gonna start falling apart. Like it will kill you. So you have to decide, like, okay, like I’m gonna go back to Pilates or I’m gonna go back to my needlepoint group or whatever it is that you used to do. I’m gonna go back to watching, you know, playing fantasy football with my boys or whatever. Like, and I know it’s hard because you’re like, well, if I’m not there to babysit them, they’re gonna make a bad choice. But I’ve already told you the only way to get is to let the bad choices roll. Faster is better. Like you don’t want to slow down, you want you want to let them roll fast as possible. So you it’s just a shift in mindset.
Lani Akiona 29:38
Okay. Yeah, no, that that makes complete sense. Wow. That so much, so much to digest and take take in because it is like for the non-addicted family member, it is. It’s like a full-time job trying to prove that this person has an addiction. Would you recommend the the um the sober spouse maybe going to a a 12-step program, something like Al-Anon?
Amber Hollingsworth 30:05
I I am a fan of Al-Anon, and a lot of the people we work with go to Al Anon. Okay. But I’m always really careful about that because it almost feels offensive when you’re the family member to be told go to Al-Anon. Okay. Because it’s like I’m not the one with a problem. Yeah. And everywhere you go to try to get help, whether it’s a doctor or a counselor, uh you there’s only one response, and it’s you need to go to Al-Anon. And it’s it’s kind of maddening. So I’m always just careful. Would it help you? Sure, it might like totally try it out. But I also don’t make alcoholics go to AA if they don’t want. Like, you know, I said, go try it out, come back, write me a report, tell me what you love, tell me what you hate. If you don’t like that, we’ll figure out something else.
Lani Akiona 30:47
Yeah.
Amber Hollingsworth 30:47
Yeah.
Lani Akiona 30:48
Okay. Makes sense. And what about what are about some what can you tell the spouse who basically says, okay, you know, I thought about how this person is sober and I don’t want to save this relationship and I want to move forward to divorce.
Amber Hollingsworth 31:06
Mm-hmm. And sometimes you app sometimes that is absolutely what you should do. Because even though I a lot of my, you know, messaging content is here’s how to help someone. Yeah, I I want people to know that just because I’m telling you how to do it doesn’t mean I’m telling you you should do it. Because I tell you right now, I wouldn’t do it in a lot of cases. So it’s just like if I was a carpenter and I could tell you how to build a million dollar house, I can show you how to do that, but it’s not me saying that you should do that, right?
Like there are a lot of reasons why you it might it might be a terrible idea for you to do that, right? Number one, they might not even they might be a crappy person underneath all that, you know. Number two, you might have you might have got sucked into it so far that even if they got better, you couldn’t get better, right? There’s certain things that happen that for whatever reasons you need to get the heck out and save yourself, and that’s okay. Right? It’s okay to do that. Okay. Yeah. So that’s yeah, so that’s just basically in a way, just pulling the plug then and just trying to the common question I get about that is, you know, how do I leave them? How do I divorce them? Oh, okay. I still support them.
Lani Akiona 32:23
Oh.
Amber Hollingsworth 32:25
Because, you know, they still care about the person, they love the person, they really do want this person to get better. Maybe they have kids with this person and they really do need the other person to get better still, you know, even if they’re leaving or whatever. Um, and that’s a really hard one because it’s pretty much impossible to divorce somebody if they don’t want the divorce and not be the villain in their story, in their narrative. So sometimes it just means you have to accept that that’s the way they’re gonna see you and be okay with it and make your exit anyway.
Like you can try to be nice and supportive and kind, but but if you’re dealing with somebody that’s really in the throes of addiction, I’m telling you, addiction lives on resentment and self-pity. Like it it just fuels it, right? It’s like the gasoline, okay? And so when someone’s really in it and they’re going through a divorce, oh my gosh, the resentment and self-pity is like massive, you know, like so. It’s just gasoline, gasoline, gasoline. So to some degree, you may have to like come to terms with that. Maybe you can split amicably and you can be supportive. And and if these tactics can still work and you separate, I do suggest you try them. But I just want some people to I just want you to know that like it may not work because if you’re divorcing someone, it you’re immediately the villain. Like that’s just really hard to separate those two things. You know, you’re taking my kids from me, you know. Okay, maybe I’m an alcoholic, but you’re supposed to be sickness and health, you know, they’re just gonna this is what they’re gonna think. Whoa.
Lani Akiona 33:55
Yeah. And so because your background is a substance abuse coach.
Amber Hollingsworth 34:00
Right. Right. But yeah, I’m a trained, yeah, counselor, mental health, and addiction, but I’ve worked in addiction most of my all my career.
Lani Akiona 34:08
So when so you’re you’re helping the um you’re helping the the family member who’s trying who who has the addictive spouse.
Amber Hollingsworth 34:17
Well, in my in my work, I work with the addictive person.
Lani Akiona 34:21
Okay.
Amber Hollingsworth 34:22
Okay. Right. A lot of my content though, the stuff I put on YouTube is trying to help these family members understand what’s going on because I’ve spent all these years inside the mind of the person that has this. So I understand how they think. I’ve spent all the, you know, people say you can’t help somebody who doesn’t want to help. I’m like, dude, that’s what I’ve been doing my whole career. People get drugged into my office, tricked into my office, you know, threatened. I every kind of way. They are sitting in front of me and they do not want to be sitting in front of me. They don’t think I have a problem. They’re thinking, you don’t know me, I don’t know who you are. Blah blah blah. I mean, they’re actively trying to resist me. And over all these years, I’ve just developed really good skills at just getting around that because it’s just offensiveness, right? And and I know that you can help people, it’s just a matter of not stepping on the landmines.
Lani Akiona 35:12
I love that. So, I mean, I just love the fact that while you are a substance abuse addiction counselor that and you’re you’re treating the person that has the addiction, you then created the put the shovel down YouTube channel that is specifically there to provide support for the family member who has the addicted spouse or mom or dad.
Amber Hollingsworth 35:38
Right. Or yes, son, daughter, sister, whatever, right? Yeah, because these family members, they’re actually the ones looking for help. They’re desperate, they’re begging for help. They’re like, and they get told there’s nothing you can do, that you’re just gonna have to let them hit bottom, they’re gonna have to decide they want it for themselves, which is kind of ridiculous. Like, and basically it’s just like step back, say a prayer, cross your fingers, and hope they hit a bottom figure it out. And when this is like your partner or your kid, like that’s unacceptable. And there’s that’s all you’re gonna get told other than go to Al-Anon, which I’m a fan of Al-Anon. It’s not that I’m against that, but it’s so frustrating when you’re that family member and no one is helping you. They’re telling you there’s nothing you can do everywhere you turn, you’re being told there’s nothing you can do. So I’m trying to say, no, there’s actually a lot you can do. And here are the things.
Lani Akiona 36:32
Oh my gosh, that’s amazing. And that’s that’s thank you so much, Amber, for for coming on the show today and speaking to the sober family member and providing some strategy and tips to support that person who’s struggling with addiction.
Amber Hollingsworth 36:50
Yeah, I’m happy. Thank you for helping me to sort of share that and get that message out. I appreciate it.
Lani Akiona 36:55
Yeah, no, and again, for for those, if you if you are a family member and your loved one is struggling with addiction, then please go to Amber’s YouTube channel, uh, put the shovel down and check it out and get some strategy and tips on how to support the addictive person without you necessarily losing yourself. Right.
Amber Hollingsworth 37:20
And if you’re the if you’re the one that has the problem, you might be thinking, Man, I wish my family member could hear this. You could send them over. I know they’ve been sending you articles and videos and podcasts. This is your turn. Send the link.
Lani Akiona 37:33
There you go. Put the shovel down, folks. Um, Amber, again, what a treat to have you on today to tackle on this important topic. And before you sign off, what’s a fun fact that people wouldn’t know about you?
Amber Hollingsworth 37:46
Oh gosh, that’s a hard question. Um, I don’t know. A lot of people don’t know I came from an addicted family, like hardcore. Like everyone in my family is addicted. Like, like grandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins, siblings, parents, like it’s just everywhere. Everyone. So I obviously spent the whole first half of my life living in it and the second half of my life working in it. It’s all I know.
Lani Akiona 38:10
That’s literally that is all you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Oh my gosh, that’s amazing. And thank you so much for this important work that you do. Yeah, thanks. I appreciate it. Any any final thoughts before I let you go?
Amber Hollingsworth 38:26
Just want to tell you guys that you’re not powerless. There are things you can do.
Lani Akiona 38:31
Yeah. Yeah, and it does. It does feel like you are powerless when you’re in the middle of it. And for you know, for those of you who are struggling with addiction, I mean it is in a way like I I had to come to terms with I am powerlessness, I am powerless over the disease of my drinking. And that that took a while. It took a while to admit that because for me, you know, I’m a strong, independent woman, but in every aspect of drinking, um, I couldn’t.
Amber Hollingsworth 39:02
Right. Yeah, you can’t get to powerlessness until you run through your bargains. Yeah.
Lani Akiona 39:08
That’s how you get there, right? You got to all your bargains.
Amber Hollingsworth 39:10
Yeah.
Yeah.
Lani Akiona 39:11
And also, it doesn’t, it doesn’t, I mean, to me, it didn’t mean I’m weak. Right. It’s I’m not weak because of this one thing. It’s just my my brain chemistry is wired differently. So right.
Amber Hollingsworth 39:22
No, all my favorite people are like in recovery. Addicts and alcoholics are the best, especially once you get that out of them. They’re driven, they’re resilient, they’re persistent. Love it.
Lani Akiona 39:33
Yeah.
Lani Akiona 39:34
Well, thank you again so much, Amber, and and coming on and um giving us giving the family member hope, honestly. Yeah, that’s that’s my goal. Yeah, yeah. Again, so check out Amber on her YouTube channel, put the shovel down and learn those tips, tips, strategies, and support to help your loved one who’s struggling with the disease of addiction. Until then, I’m Lonnie Akeona of the Acciona Law Podcast, where we talk about anything and everything that intersects in the areas of family law and divorce. And don’t forget to hit that like and subscribe button. Until the next time, be well.
Outro 40:22
The information in this podcast is general advice only and should not in any respect be relied on as specific legal advice.