In this episode of the Akiona Law podcast, Ululani “Lani” Akiona speaks with Jody Bauer, a certified High-Conflict Divorce Coach, and the founder of Solidarity Consulting. She’s also the founder of That’s What She Said, a storytelling event built to give women’s voices the space they deserve. Together they dismantle common misconceptions around “high-conflict” divorces, exposing how the label often masks targeted patterns of emotional abuse and manipulation rather than mutual pettiness. Together, they discuss actionable steps for protecting your well-being, from setting firm boundaries and documenting evidence for legal proceedings to building a targeted support network of coaching and therapy.
Episode Transcript
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Welcome to another episode of the Akiona Law Family Podcast, wherein we talk about anything and everything that relates or intersects in the areas of family, law, and divorce.
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I’m Lani Akiona, and today on the podcast episode.
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We’re going to be diving into.
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high-conflict divorce. We’re going to be talking about navigating the challenges of a high-conflict divorce.
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And the ongoing challenges of co-parenting with a manipulative ex-partner.
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And so with me to talk about that is Jody Bauer.
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M S N B S N, she is a certified high conflict divorce coach.
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And a founder of Solidarity Consulting.
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After a little bit about Jody after 28 years as a nurse practitioner.
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and her own experience divorcing a narcissistic partner.
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She found her calling, helping clients recognize patterns of abuse.
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Regulates our nervous systems through that separation divorce process.
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And learn how to communicate effectively in family court.
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Jody’s also the founder of That’s What She Said.
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A storytelling event.
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Built to give women voices a space that they deserve.
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Jodi lives in Bellingham, Washington.
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Jodi, welcome to the show.
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Thanks, Lonnie. Thanks for having me.
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I’m so excited to have you on here, because this is a really big… you hear this term bandied about a lot. High conflict divorce, high conflict divorce.
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So, what is a high conflict divorce?
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Yes, it is one of those words that’s getting flung around a lot, right? Like narcissist or gaslighting.
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Sometimes it’s hard to know what the intent really is behind that.
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So.
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One of the issues that I am
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So, you can edit this part out.
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I would say to in a legal setting.
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A high conflict divorce means one where…
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It is not going smoothly. People are not agreeing, they’re not submitting documents in time.
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And it’s gonna be messy, and it’s gonna be long, and the kids are likely gonna be involved.
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And a lot of extra work, I suspect, on the part of the legal.
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team. And my concern with that label, even though that’s my certification,
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is, um, two things. One.
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I, I think this is a mislabel for abuse.
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Correct. Yeah. Ah.
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So, when, when someone comes in and you’re like, oh, this is a high-conflict divorce, sort of implicating, like, oh man, here come two people.
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Yeah. Right.
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Yeah.
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that are just refusing to get along, and they just… they’re digging their heels in, and they won’t put the kids first.
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And in.
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Right, they’re bickering, right? They’re both just super, super petty.
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Yeah, exactly, and they won’t just get over themselves and move forward, right?
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Right. Right.
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And I think that is such re-harm for people that are genuinely just trying to do their best with someone.
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who has a completely different goal. And so, the majority of my clients that I work with.
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They’re… honestly, they are coming at this like.
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Hmm.
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Listen, I just want this to be fair, I want the kids to be okay, I want us to get through this, and, you know, just as easy as possible, right? Let’s just be fair and respectful.
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And the other person, the antagonistic.
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Yeah. Yeah.
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Right. Wait a minute, wait a minute. I got to pause you right there, right? So you’ve got one person saying,
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Let’s just be fair and respectful.
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Yeah, yeah.
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Yeah. Right. Okay.
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Right? And that’s their true intent. And the harm comes when you think that you are also dealing with somebody who’s coming at it.
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Yes.
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from the same perspective, right?
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Huh.
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And and it takes a long while to realize.
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I don’t think this person is trying to solve this issue at all. I think they’re trying to… they want to win.
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They want to come out of it being the winner, they want to be the one that looks good, they want to kind of tend to dump all the
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Oh my gosh, that’s it. Right.
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the blame on the other party.
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Pretty willing to bring the kids in to get what they need, and I think a confusing aspect is.
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These personality types don’t always present as somebody who is just angry,
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And, you know, uncooperative in public. In fact, they’re often
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Right. They don’t present as an asshole in public. That’s what you’re saying.
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Don’t present as an in public, yeah.
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And so, you know, that adds to the confusion of this person who is dealing with an behind the scenes.
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Right.
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But in public, they are seeing somebody who is just like, oh, this is so, you know, it’s so frustrating that he won’t just…
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Choose to, you know, participate, and he won’t, you know, and there’s this whole language around what the other person isn’t doing.
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And really, behind the scenes, they are the ones causing the harm.
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And so, that’s my concern. Like, I really do consider this abuse, right? So even if somebody isn’t getting strangled or punched in the face.
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Uh-huh. Right.
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This slow eroding and being, you know, the contempt and control and manipulation behind the scenes.
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It’s so painful.
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is really, really painful. And so, it really should be considered abuse.
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It is so painful, and…
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You and I both have that perspective of going through a high conflict divorce and.
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You know, honestly, before, you know, my idea of a high conflict divorce is exactly what you said.
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You have 2 people being petty.
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That just cannot get along.
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And with me because of what I do.
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Because I’m a family law divorce attorney, because I do mediation, I’m a collaborative divorce attorney.
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My skill set will get used against me as part of the manipulation.
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Mm-hmm.
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Oh, you’re a collaborative divorce attorney. Why aren’t you being collaborative?
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Yeah.
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And it’s like because I can’t, because we’re operating a different playing fields like you said, I’m trying to come.
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Mm-hmm.
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From this process of respect and integrity and good faith, and with you, it’s just a form of.
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How can I manipulate you?
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To get what I want.
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Because at the end of the day.
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that your partner doesn’t care about the kids.
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Mm-hmm. Yeah.
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They sure as heck don’t care about you. What they care about is getting what they want.
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At any cost.
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Yeah, yeah.
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And that’s what, to me, makes it high-conflict divorce, and you hit the nail on the head. It’s a pattern.
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.
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of emotional… it’s emotional abuse.
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Yeah, it is.
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Yeah, and the other piece of this label that I…
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That I think can be confusing for people. I’ve actually had two clients in the last week say, I don’t know… I don’t know if I’m…
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In a high-conflict divorce. Like, I don’t… I don’t think I am. So I’m not sure if this is a good fit.
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Yeah.
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And when we dig into it a little bit.
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Okay.
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Okay.
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We come to find out that there hasn’t been a lot of conflict because one person is just like, I’m not that, I’m not arguing. I
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Fine. Like, I’m just going to keep the peace, and have slowly learned.
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to acquiesce on things, to say, like, it’s not that big of a deal, I’m not gonna fight in front of the kids about this.
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Yeah.
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And so there isn’t conflict because one person is saying, I’m not gonna… I’m not doing that.
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But when you come down to then…
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The boundaried behaviors that come around when you say, I am not doing this anymore.
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That’s when things really escalate, and that’s when we use the term post-separation abuse.
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And this real ramp-up, because somebody has been acquiescing and keeping the peace,
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Oh, great. Yeah, great.
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And now they’re saying, I’m not… I’m not doing that anymore. You can’t talk to me like that.
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I’m not going to let you come in.
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to my life and blow up my day.
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You know, I’m not doing that anymore.
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And you’re breaking the rules of your agreement, right? Which is that they come in like a bully, and they push and push and push, and they get you, and you finally say, okay.
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Oh my gosh, yeah.
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But when, when the line gets drawn in the sand.
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That’s when the conflict.
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and the abuse, I would say, really escalates. And so.
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That’s a confusing thing.
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You know what? That, you know, thank you for labeling that post-separation abuse.
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Oh my gosh, it’s just, you just kind of just clarified so many things for me because when I told
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My ex said, you know, this is it, I’m done.
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And then, if things just ramped up.
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And with me, the things wrapped up were, um…
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Mm-hmm. Yeah.
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Yeah, I see that.
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Man, it’s even now, it’s hard for me, because I get emotionally dysregulated.
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It’s like your brain can’t really function.
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But it’s that ramping up in behaviors
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Yeah.
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That escalation where it says constant pressure in a way.
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to just wear you down.
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Where you just give up, okay, when I just give up because it’s just so much on your nervous system.
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Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
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I was in this constant fight, or… what is it, fight or flight? Fight or flight, or font? Fight or flight for, like, 3 months.
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Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
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Um…
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Yeah.
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So, and just to identify that for people, what it could mean is this constant, like, you get constant, this barrage of texts.
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We’re talking about 20 techs, and all this you, you, you, why can’t you be nice?
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this, that, that, you know, the boys, our kids would be used a lot.
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or phone calls, or I was still in the house at the time.
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Yeah. Mm hmm.
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And we’re supposed to be living in separate areas, and of course, he wouldn’t respect my area of the house.
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And it was just this constant.
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Gosh, in fact, one time I was sleeping, and he was going to go on a, I think, on a trip with the boys, and I woke up.
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I woke up to find him standing over the bed, looking down at me.
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That was so freaking.
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Yeah.
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I was like, what the ? Because I had clothes to the bedroom door,
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and had stuck, like, I propped a chair up against it, because the downstairs bedroom door didn’t have a lock.
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Yeah.
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Mary.
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I’m like, dude, this is effing. He’s like, oh, I just wanted to tell you you had a flat tire. I’m like.
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Yeah. Yeah.
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Why couldn’t she just text that to me?
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Yeah.
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Why you have to come over here and stand over the bed staring at me so when I wake up, there’s your face.
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Yeah, yeah, and that’s like, that’s a really perfect example of what we mean when we say gaslighting, right?
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Oh, woof!
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So, you’re laying in bed, you know that you’ve secured the door.
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Yes.
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And that you have some fear of him anyway.
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justified fear of him anyway.
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And then you wake up to find him standing over you in a threatening position.
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And instead of… instead of him.
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Acknowledging that, like, oh my gosh, I can see how that, oh, I totally didn’t mean to scare you, right?
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I don’t know what it was. Yeah.
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Yeah.
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He says, I just came in to tell you that your tire’s flat. Like, what is wrong with you? Why are you acting so scared when I just came in here to be a nice guy, and I just…
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Yeah, yeah.
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trying to tell you, like, ah, you get so, you’re so sensitive, and you’re so, like, I can’t believe it’s everything is my fault, right? And you’re like, wait a minute.
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I was just processing the fact that I woke up to somebody standing over my bed, scaring me.
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And now, it’s my fault, because I’m…
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Being too sensitive, or I’m making it, you know,
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He’s been a nice guy! That’s his whole thing. Nice guy.
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And that spin, yeah, being a nice guy, yeah.
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Yeah, yeah.
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He’s a nice guy. Oh my gosh. So let’s talk about…
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Because what you do, especially, is help people.
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going in court against… because, you know, when they go to, like, again.
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Mm-hmm.
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Yeah.
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It’s a different persona in front of family, friends, the court, right? Charming, Mr. Nice guy or nice Mrs. Nice Woman, and no one else sees that mask.
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Yeah, yeah.
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So here we are in court, you’re finally trying to stand up for yourself,
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And you’re so frustrated.
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And there you’ve got…
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That person on the other side, calm, cool, collect it.
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How do you help people navigate that?
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Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I know, I know for me,
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Yeah, go ahead.
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Yeah, I mean, I help people…
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Okay. Oh, gosh. Yeah.
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do what I didn’t know to do, right? I pretty much did everything wrong. I had no idea. This was 12 years ago, I didn’t know the language of narcissism.
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Yeah.
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I never would have said this is abuse. I would have never
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Use that language, right?
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Wait, what would you have used then? Because people need to know this, they don’t know it.
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Yeah, it’s a really good question. I would say it’s confusing.
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Yeah. Oh…
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Yeah.
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Uh-huh.
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That is… that is probably the number one thing that people will say. So, like, you know, when I talk to therapists or physicians or other advocates that are in trying to figure out what is… is this a high conflict? What is this?
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When one person is, like, they’re confused, or they’re just like,
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overwhelmed because their nervous system has been on high alert for months and years.
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Right. Right.
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Yeah, and so I would say confusion is probably the number… number one thing that I see.
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It is…
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And it’s because, you know, like, this barrage of text, you know, and I have clients that have gotten, like, 40 texts in one evening.
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Yes.
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And interspersed between the how dare you, I can’t believe you’re doing this to us, like.
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You are blah, blah, blah blah blah. It might be like, I’ve always loved you, and you’re, like, the best thing that’s ever happened to me. And then the next line is like,
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It says flip back and forth, back and forth. And you’re like, what?
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Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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And, you know, I, I’m slowly working on a book, and one of the… I have, like, 20 working titles, and one of them is… wait, what?
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Yeah.
00:14:29.000 –> 00:14:30.000
Because, like.
00:14:30.000 –> 00:14:33.000
That’s so good.
00:14:33.000 –> 00:14:34.000
Yeah.
00:14:34.000 –> 00:14:39.000
It’s so disorienting. Like in normal relationships, in healthy relationships, it just doesn’t happen, right? Either someone is mad at you.
00:14:39.000 –> 00:14:40.000
And you’re in it together, and you work it out,
00:14:40.000 –> 00:14:42.000
No, it’s level. Yeah. Right.
00:14:42.000 –> 00:14:50.000
Or somebody is really connecting with you and engaged, and that’s where you are, right? And this back and forth, um, it’s just… it’s so disorienting.
00:14:50.000 –> 00:14:57.000
So I would say confusion is the number is the number one thing that I that I see. And so, like, my, my work that I do.
00:14:57.000 –> 00:15:00.000
I kind of see it as like holding up a mirror.
00:15:00.000 –> 00:15:04.000
to this person, like, to their true reality.
00:15:04.000 –> 00:15:11.000
One to, like, who they truly are, and who they have been told that they are not for a lot of years, usually.
00:15:11.000 –> 00:15:12.000
Your your judgment for me, it was your judgmental, your condescending, you are.
00:15:12.000 –> 00:15:18.000
Yeah. Okay. Okay. Yeah. That’s what you got?
00:15:18.000 –> 00:15:19.000
You, okay.
00:15:19.000 –> 00:15:23.000
You’re a perfectionist, yeah, you’re a… you’re controlling. Yeah, this is what… this was the language that I heard, and that I absorbed over all these years.
00:15:23.000 –> 00:15:25.000
Wow.
00:15:25.000 –> 00:15:26.000
You’re awkward. You make people feel uncomfortable.
00:15:26.000 –> 00:15:31.000
Oh my gosh.
00:15:31.000 –> 00:15:32.000
Yeah.
00:15:32.000 –> 00:15:38.000
Um, and that was, like, this slowly absorbed kind of thing. But interspersed with, like, you’re the best thing that’s ever happened to me, like, you’re my better half, come meet my gorgeous wife.
00:15:38.000 –> 00:15:39.000
And then behind the scenes, just.
00:15:39.000 –> 00:15:40.000
Tearing you down.
00:15:40.000 –> 00:15:45.000
A totally different picture, yeah. Yeah, and so, so confusing.
00:15:45.000 –> 00:15:46.000
Yeah.
00:15:46.000 –> 00:15:48.000
Well, let me ask you this, so you know those criticisms, like looking back now.
00:15:48.000 –> 00:15:52.000
Do you think it was a way in a way they were identifying?
00:15:52.000 –> 00:15:56.000
their own character defects, like, they’re the ones that are actually judgmental.
00:15:56.000 –> 00:15:58.000
And condescending.
00:15:58.000 –> 00:15:59.000
Yeah, I think, yeah…
00:15:59.000 –> 00:16:01.000
Right? Kind of like if you spot it, you got it.
00:16:01.000 –> 00:16:08.000
I think that’s part of the psychology, our understanding of this process, if we’re going to use the term narcissism, right?
00:16:08.000 –> 00:16:14.000
Which I will just say, we do, at least at this point, we understand it as being on a spectrum, right, so.
00:16:14.000 –> 00:16:15.000
It is, it’s a spectrum.
00:16:15.000 –> 00:16:17.000
You might… you might have somebody who is, like,
00:16:17.000 –> 00:16:21.000
You’re like, oh my gosh, can you stop looking in the mirror? You look fine, or
00:16:21.000 –> 00:16:27.000
Why do you care so much about what clothes you wear, right? You might have something, like, very superficial in linen. On the other hand, you might have this really
00:16:27.000 –> 00:16:31.000
pathological malignant presentation where somebody is
00:16:31.000 –> 00:16:34.000
Like cannot hold on to relationships.
00:16:34.000 –> 00:16:46.000
They are burning bridges everywhere, and they are, you know, they’re really just causing chaos and destruction throughout, but with a really pretty face and charm and a lot of confusion around it.
00:16:46.000 –> 00:16:48.000
So.
00:16:48.000 –> 00:16:49.000
I… yeah.
00:16:49.000 –> 00:16:53.000
Wait, you know, I’m gonna pause here right there like for me like my hook with my ex.
00:16:53.000 –> 00:16:54.000
was victim.
00:16:54.000 –> 00:16:59.000
Mm-hmm.
00:16:59.000 –> 00:17:00.000
Mmhmm.
00:17:00.000 –> 00:17:02.000
So, when we first got together, he told me this soft story about how his ex, significant other.
00:17:02.000 –> 00:17:06.000
cheated on him, and I don’t know if she really… I think they were in a break, I don’t know what.
00:17:06.000 –> 00:17:07.000
But it was this hook.
00:17:07.000 –> 00:17:08.000
Mm-hmm.
00:17:08.000 –> 00:17:10.000
That enabled me to be like, oh, I, you know, I felt so bad for him.
00:17:10.000 –> 00:17:13.000
Mm-hmm.
00:17:13.000 –> 00:17:18.000
And so when the red flags would come up, and those red flags ladies, or men, they come up early.
00:17:18.000 –> 00:17:19.000
Yeah.
00:17:19.000 –> 00:17:21.000
And when they come up.
00:17:21.000 –> 00:17:22.000
Take it for what it is, because it’s not going to change.
00:17:22.000 –> 00:17:24.000
Mmhmm.
00:17:24.000 –> 00:17:26.000
But because I felt sorry for him, because I bought into that victim narrative,
00:17:26.000 –> 00:17:28.000
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
00:17:28.000 –> 00:17:30.000
I thought if I love him enough.
00:17:30.000 –> 00:17:31.000
I just need it, he’ll change.
00:17:31.000 –> 00:17:32.000
Yeah. Yeah.
00:17:32.000 –> 00:17:37.000
Can you just… I just need to… I can love him. I can give him the love that he wants.
00:17:37.000 –> 00:17:38.000
And they, and they.
00:17:38.000 –> 00:17:41.000
Yeah, that’s right. Yeah, yeah. And I think that is really common. In fact, I, I’m.
00:17:41.000 –> 00:17:46.000
you know, if we were in front of a group, I would have people raise their hand, be like, how many of you have spent hours
00:17:46.000 –> 00:17:48.000
And probably literal months.
00:17:48.000 –> 00:17:54.000
explaining, making something make sense to your brain, ruminating about, like, yeah, he did that, but he had such a rough childhood, or I know what happened to him, so
00:17:54.000 –> 00:17:56.000
Yes. Yeah.
00:17:56.000 –> 00:17:58.000
You know, and so, like, all of that extra work in your brain.
00:17:58.000 –> 00:18:00.000
Yeah, yeah.
00:18:00.000 –> 00:18:11.000
Yeah, but yeah, and to your point about, like, what do we think, like, if those… if you were being accused of cheating, like, I know I was accused of being unfaithful and stealing, and
00:18:11.000 –> 00:18:12.000
Oh, yeah. Great. Time.
00:18:12.000 –> 00:18:19.000
And I was so perplexed by this, because I was like, when would I have… I’m working and doing everything for the kids, and I’m here all… when would I have had time to go do any of that, right?
00:18:19.000 –> 00:18:20.000
Yeah. Wow.
00:18:20.000 –> 00:18:23.000
And I had no framework for… it just was confusing, right?
00:18:23.000 –> 00:18:24.000
Right.
00:18:24.000 –> 00:18:27.000
But our understanding of, like, the…
00:18:27.000 –> 00:18:31.000
The really hollow sense of self in this personality.
00:18:31.000 –> 00:18:35.000
Um, that develops usually as a result of something.
00:18:35.000 –> 00:18:40.000
Traumatic or some perception of of who they are as they grow up, right?
00:18:40.000 –> 00:18:43.000
And our understanding is that it.
00:18:43.000 –> 00:18:44.000
There is so much shame involved in who they are. They don’t… they don’t like who they are.
00:18:44.000 –> 00:18:49.000
Hmm? Right. Yes. Yeah.
00:18:49.000 –> 00:18:52.000
They don’t, there isn’t really much to it.
00:18:52.000 –> 00:18:58.000
And because that is unacceptable to walk around with that much shame.
00:18:58.000 –> 00:19:04.000
It’s almost like they develop this reality about what is true about them.
00:19:04.000 –> 00:19:07.000
And they moved through the world as if that is true, like.
00:19:07.000 –> 00:19:08.000
I’m a good guy. I’m a great mom, I prioritize my kids, I’m a good community member.
00:19:08.000 –> 00:19:13.000
Right.
00:19:13.000 –> 00:19:18.000
And they just make that make sense for them. And that is how they operate through the world.
00:19:18.000 –> 00:19:21.000
And so if somebody comes at them and says, hey,
00:19:21.000 –> 00:19:25.000
That was so terrible, the way that you treated me the other day.
00:19:25.000 –> 00:19:26.000
There’s no space to integrate that and be like, oh, wow, I missed you, I am so sorry.
00:19:26.000 –> 00:19:35.000
Right. The accountability. Back at you.
00:19:35.000 –> 00:19:36.000
Yeah.
00:19:36.000 –> 00:19:38.000
It is like… it is a Teflon wall, and it’s, like, back at you. Like, how dare you talk to me like that after everything I’ve done for you?
00:19:38.000 –> 00:19:42.000
Yes.
00:19:42.000 –> 00:19:43.000
Yeah. Oh, my boy.
00:19:43.000 –> 00:19:45.000
Or, you know, and so it’s just impenetrable, because if that little, like, glass castle
00:19:45.000 –> 00:19:46.000
Right.
00:19:46.000 –> 00:19:47.000
walls were to break, they would crumble.
00:19:47.000 –> 00:19:48.000
They would.
00:19:48.000 –> 00:19:51.000
And so it’s like this really fierce determination.
00:19:51.000 –> 00:19:55.000
unconscious, I don’t know, to hold on to this thing that’s true about them.
00:19:55.000 –> 00:19:56.000
Yeah.
00:19:56.000 –> 00:20:00.000
But, you know, is to protect that ego at all costs because that is their sense of self because it is, it’s so fragile.
00:20:00.000 –> 00:20:02.000
Yeah. Yeah.
00:20:02.000 –> 00:20:03.000
Yeah.
00:20:03.000 –> 00:20:07.000
worse, you know, other people, like, we would take it in and be like, oh my gosh, like, I’m so sorry for what I.
00:20:07.000 –> 00:20:10.000
Yeah, yeah.
00:20:10.000 –> 00:20:11.000
That’s right, yeah.
00:20:11.000 –> 00:20:16.000
what I said hurt you. I didn’t mean to. And we take it in and try to do better, but they don’t. Then they just turn around back on you, like with my ex, it was.
00:20:16.000 –> 00:20:19.000
I was caught in this Catch 22.
00:20:19.000 –> 00:20:25.000
Where either I wasn’t round enough for our kids or I was working too much and not making enough money.
00:20:25.000 –> 00:20:28.000
So I’m like, I’m in a no-win situation.
00:20:28.000 –> 00:20:31.000
And how can… how can you do that? But what it is, it’s…
00:20:31.000 –> 00:20:38.000
This is what it is. They are constantly putting you in this position.
00:20:38.000 –> 00:20:39.000
Where it’s a goalpost.
00:20:39.000 –> 00:20:40.000
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
00:20:40.000 –> 00:20:41.000
So, I’ve got to do this, and that goalpost always moves.
00:20:41.000 –> 00:20:43.000
It keeps moving. Yeah. Yeah.
00:20:43.000 –> 00:20:47.000
And it’s what ends up happening, I know for me, is, like, I became a total people pleaser, and I was twisting myself into a pretzel.
00:20:47.000 –> 00:20:50.000
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
00:20:50.000 –> 00:20:51.000
to please him, because if I just do this, if I just do this.
00:20:51.000 –> 00:20:54.000
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:20:54.000 –> 00:20:57.000
then things will be okay, things will be okay.
00:20:57.000 –> 00:20:58.000
And, um, you know, I.
00:20:58.000 –> 00:21:03.000
Yeah. Yeah.
00:21:03.000 –> 00:21:04.000
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
00:21:04.000 –> 00:21:06.000
I, like, lost myself after 24 years of marriage where I completely lost all sense of myself, and if I had stayed in that marriage any longer.
00:21:06.000 –> 00:21:08.000
Yeah.
00:21:08.000 –> 00:21:10.000
I knew I was, I was gonna, I was, I was dying.
00:21:10.000 –> 00:21:12.000
Yeah.
00:21:12.000 –> 00:21:13.000
I was dying. And I don’t know if you felt that.
00:21:13.000 –> 00:21:16.000
Yeah, yeah.
00:21:16.000 –> 00:21:21.000
Yeah, I would say I know for myself, so many of the clients that I work with.
00:21:21.000 –> 00:21:23.000
It’s like they have become kind of a shell of themselves.
00:21:23.000 –> 00:21:26.000
A shadow, a shell. Yeah.
00:21:26.000 –> 00:21:27.000
Thank you.
00:21:27.000 –> 00:21:29.000
Yeah, and you… and, like, that… that moving goalpost, I had a client tell me, like, it’s like there was a carrot that was just, like, always beyond reach, you know.
00:21:29.000 –> 00:21:34.000
Yeah. Yes. Yeah.
00:21:34.000 –> 00:21:37.000
If you you wouldn’t, you wouldn’t do this if you really loved me.
00:21:37.000 –> 00:21:43.000
And it doesn’t super make sense, right? You’re saying, like, you work too much, you don’t work enough.
00:21:43.000 –> 00:21:46.000
You know, I, my ex.
00:21:46.000 –> 00:21:50.000
used to really shame me around disorganization.
00:21:50.000 –> 00:21:51.000
It’s just a lot.
00:21:51.000 –> 00:21:59.000
And so, we had 3 small kids, and I was working and running a business, and doing large… pretty much everything for the kids as, like, pretty single mom-ish.
00:21:59.000 –> 00:22:00.000
And yeah, yeah. And I remember him telling me once, like,
00:22:00.000 –> 00:22:07.000
Pretty kick-ass, Jody.
00:22:07.000 –> 00:22:08.000
Yeah.
00:22:08.000 –> 00:22:12.000
we were… we got in our van, we’re… he wouldn’t let the kids into his car if we did anything, the kids were only in the van, right?
00:22:12.000 –> 00:22:17.000
And he was like, it’s just such a mess in here. Like, I know a lot of moms, Jodi,
00:22:17.000 –> 00:22:18.000
Who can manage to keep this clean.
00:22:18.000 –> 00:22:19.000
Wow.
00:22:19.000 –> 00:22:27.000
And I think when this personality type, like, I suspect you are and myself, where we’re like, I want to own anything that’s mine.
00:22:27.000 –> 00:22:28.000
And if there’s truth in something, I want that, right? And so, yeah, and I remember thinking, like,
00:22:28.000 –> 00:22:34.000
Yes. We own it.
00:22:34.000 –> 00:22:35.000
Yeah.
00:22:35.000 –> 00:22:38.000
You’re right, I also know, I also know women who keep their cars clean, and I don’t know how it is, right?
00:22:38.000 –> 00:22:39.000
Yeah. Really?
00:22:39.000 –> 00:22:43.000
And at the same time, I’m thinking, your car is full of garbage, and you never know where your keys are. And you, like, I’m always helping you find things.
00:22:43.000 –> 00:22:48.000
Are you serious?
00:22:48.000 –> 00:22:49.000
Wow. Yeah.
00:22:49.000 –> 00:22:53.000
But I still absorbed it. I still was like, you know what, you’re right. Yeah, yeah. And I took on that shame of that, right?
00:22:53.000 –> 00:22:55.000
Uh-huh.
00:22:55.000 –> 00:23:00.000
And I do think the heaviness that people experience is, it’s a lot of just like.
00:23:00.000 –> 00:23:03.000
owning the shame that this other person refuses to carry.
00:23:03.000 –> 00:23:07.000
Oh my gosh. You are!
00:23:07.000 –> 00:23:08.000
Thank you.
00:23:08.000 –> 00:23:12.000
And now you’re, like, doing it for both of you, right? You have, like, the weight of… of all of it, and it’s really exhausting.
00:23:12.000 –> 00:23:13.000
Yeah.
00:23:13.000 –> 00:23:17.000
Thank you. Thank you for saying that because I’m sure there’s like, I didn’t recognize that either, that this, the shame.
00:23:17.000 –> 00:23:18.000
Yeah.
00:23:18.000 –> 00:23:21.000
That you’re carrying is such a heavy burden, like you said, you’re doing it
00:23:21.000 –> 00:23:24.000
For the marriage, for the relationship.
00:23:24.000 –> 00:23:25.000
Yeah.
00:23:25.000 –> 00:23:26.000
It is a heavy burden to bear.
00:23:26.000 –> 00:23:31.000
Yeah, yeah. And then I know for me, I had shame around, like, I chose this person.
00:23:31.000 –> 00:23:32.000
Hmm.
00:23:32.000 –> 00:23:36.000
And even though I didn’t know how bad things would be going through the divorce, I knew.
00:23:36.000 –> 00:23:37.000
Nobody knows.
00:23:37.000 –> 00:23:41.000
No, and you can’t predict, you can’t predict how that escalation is going to be, right?
00:23:41.000 –> 00:23:44.000
You can’t… you cannot.
00:23:44.000 –> 00:23:45.000
Hmm. Okay.
00:23:45.000 –> 00:23:49.000
Um, but yeah, I would have never guessed that this process would have happened. Um, I knew that it wasn’t, I knew I.
00:23:49.000 –> 00:23:56.000
you know, I, like I said, I was embarrassed that I chose this person to be my kids’ father.
00:23:56.000 –> 00:23:57.000
Aww.
00:23:57.000 –> 00:23:59.000
And that I was married to him in the community, so I had that shame too.
00:23:59.000 –> 00:24:09.000
But I also was like, that was my choice. That was, like, I did that, I’m not gonna blow up my kid’s lives just because, you know, because this isn’t what I dreamt it would be.
00:24:09.000 –> 00:24:10.000
Right? And so, that’s another… a lot of cultural or spiritual frameworks that don’t allow for any adjustment to that decision that you, you know, you made when you were a baby child and said, I do.
00:24:10.000 –> 00:24:20.000
Yeah, I hear you in that. Right.
00:24:20.000 –> 00:24:23.000
Um, so, yeah, I think.
00:24:23.000 –> 00:24:31.000
the exhaustion and the nervous system taxing, and, like, the incidence of autoimmune disease.
00:24:31.000 –> 00:24:35.000
In people that have lived with this type of personality.
00:24:35.000 –> 00:24:41.000
Where you just absorb and absorb, and you swallow, because it doesn’t do any good to say.
00:24:41.000 –> 00:24:42.000
Like, you said you were gonna be home at 7 last night, you didn’t come home until midnight, like, I was waiting for you.
00:24:42.000 –> 00:24:47.000
Okay.
00:24:47.000 –> 00:24:53.000
You know not I learned to not do that anymore, because I would just get a, like, dump of shame on me.
00:24:53.000 –> 00:24:54.000
How dare you! Yeah, I work so hard, and, you know, blah blah blah blah blah.
00:24:54.000 –> 00:24:58.000
Well, how dare you? How dare you? Right.
00:24:58.000 –> 00:25:07.000
Um, so you learn to just absorb it, right? And I think there is, you know, there is some good data suggesting that when we keep absorbing.
00:25:07.000 –> 00:25:14.000
harm, and we don’t express it, and we don’t have a place to work through it. Like, it literally… it has to go somewhere, right?
00:25:14.000 –> 00:25:15.000
And so it is costly. It’s costly.
00:25:15.000 –> 00:25:22.000
Yeah. You know, and for me, you know, I’m going to open up here for me, it turned into abusing alcohol.
00:25:22.000 –> 00:25:23.000
Mm-hmm.
00:25:23.000 –> 00:25:28.000
Because it was, it was just so much, and especially with the, with the verbal abuse and the put downs.
00:25:28.000 –> 00:25:29.000
Okay.
00:25:29.000 –> 00:25:31.000
Like, I couldn’t absorb it anymore, and I had to numb out.
00:25:31.000 –> 00:25:33.000
Yeah, yeah.
00:25:33.000 –> 00:25:34.000
Yeah.
00:25:34.000 –> 00:25:40.000
And so that’s why at at the end, when I had reached 10 years of sobriety, and I was just so like, it’s been 10 years.
00:25:40.000 –> 00:25:43.000
Why is everything still my fault? Because I took a lot of shame.
00:25:43.000 –> 00:25:44.000
Hmm, yeah, yeah.
00:25:44.000 –> 00:25:50.000
around my drinking, everything was my fault, and he would tell me, if only you just stop drinking, things would get better, things would get better.
00:25:50.000 –> 00:25:51.000
Yeah, yeah.
00:25:51.000 –> 00:25:53.000
And here it was, I’m like, it’s 10 years and things having gotten better.
00:25:53.000 –> 00:25:55.000
Yeah.
00:25:55.000 –> 00:25:59.000
And in fact, they’re worse, and that’s why I knew, like, if I don’t leave him,
00:25:59.000 –> 00:26:00.000
I’m gonna pick up a drink.
00:26:00.000 –> 00:26:01.000
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
00:26:01.000 –> 00:26:02.000
Yeah, yeah.
00:26:02.000 –> 00:26:07.000
And for me to drink is to die and that’s, that’s how bad it, it got.
00:26:07.000 –> 00:26:08.000
Phew!
00:26:08.000 –> 00:26:11.000
Yeah, yeah, and I do think, you know, like, I think there’s so much, um.
00:26:11.000 –> 00:26:15.000
compassion for… I mean, I am learning to have compassion for myself for staying in it for 20 years, you know.
00:26:15.000 –> 00:26:17.000
Yes, yeah, yeah, we do.
00:26:17.000 –> 00:26:24.000
And, um, what has helped me is to think through, like, our nervous system, like, our primal.
00:26:24.000 –> 00:26:27.000
Nervous system’s job is to keep us safe, right?
00:26:27.000 –> 00:26:29.000
And so, if on a Tuesday afternoon,
00:26:29.000 –> 00:26:31.000
The kids are around, and…
00:26:31.000 –> 00:26:35.000
There’s a reasonable fight to be had, you know, what…
00:26:35.000 –> 00:26:38.000
You said you were coming home at 7, you didn’t come home until midnight last night.
00:26:38.000 –> 00:26:40.000
Your body’s like, what’s safe for this moment? It doesn’t come up and ask you, like, should we do this? Should we pick this fight right now?
00:26:40.000 –> 00:26:44.000
Yeah.
00:26:44.000 –> 00:26:48.000
It’s subtly moving you toward what will keep you safe in that moment.
00:26:48.000 –> 00:26:49.000
And then those moments add up, and then it’s months and years.
00:26:49.000 –> 00:26:51.000
Yeah. It does.
00:26:51.000 –> 00:26:57.000
And then you look up, and you like, wow, my nervous system really was trying to keep me safe.
00:26:57.000 –> 00:27:02.000
But without any, like, higher thinking that would say.
00:27:02.000 –> 00:27:06.000
This actually isn’t safe. And even though you keep getting this.
00:27:06.000 –> 00:27:11.000
kind of intermittent reinforcement that you get in an abusive pattern, right?
00:27:11.000 –> 00:27:17.000
Where, no, you’re not meeting the, you’re not meeting my expectations, your disappointment, blah blah blah blah blah. You might also get like.
00:27:17.000 –> 00:27:18.000
An intermittent, like…
00:27:18.000 –> 00:27:20.000
Right. Great.
00:27:20.000 –> 00:27:28.000
Delightful evening or a great vacation or a comment to someone else about how great things are and then you’re like, oh, ok, well, I
00:27:28.000 –> 00:27:34.000
Wow, I must have misinterpreted that, because… because look at what they’re saying right now, or look at what they’re offering right now.
00:27:34.000 –> 00:27:38.000
And so, like, I do think that that intermittent reinforcement.
00:27:38.000 –> 00:27:39.000
Yeah, good… Right. Keeps us hooked.
00:27:39.000 –> 00:27:45.000
He keeps us in there, right? It’s kind of like gambling, it’s like slots, like, you know, one every 100 times you win something, it’s gonna.
00:27:45.000 –> 00:27:46.000
your brain is like, I can fix this, I can, I can solve this problem.
00:27:46.000 –> 00:27:52.000
Yeah. It’s, gosh, there’s actually a
00:27:52.000 –> 00:27:57.000
I feel like there’s actually a terminology for this, maybe like what you just said is intermittent.
00:27:57.000 –> 00:27:59.000
reinforcement that keeps you kind of hooked in.
00:27:59.000 –> 00:28:01.000
And, um…
00:28:01.000 –> 00:28:02.000
Oh, okay.
00:28:02.000 –> 00:28:04.000
Yeah, breadcrumbs is another expression that I’ve heard too. Just, just enough.
00:28:04.000 –> 00:28:05.000
Oh man.
00:28:05.000 –> 00:28:06.000
To keep you kind of on the hook.
00:28:06.000 –> 00:28:07.000
Um, yeah.
00:28:07.000 –> 00:28:09.000
Wow. Yeah.
00:28:09.000 –> 00:28:10.000
That’s really good.
00:28:10.000 –> 00:28:14.000
Yeah. And another technique is kind of what we call, like, little nuggets of truth.
00:28:14.000 –> 00:28:16.000
So.
00:28:16.000 –> 00:28:21.000
Like, maybe in that situation with my minivan is messy.
00:28:21.000 –> 00:28:26.000
Where I would be like, that, that is true, like, it is messy right now.
00:28:26.000 –> 00:28:27.000
Um, and, and so.
00:28:27.000 –> 00:28:29.000
Huh?
00:28:29.000 –> 00:28:36.000
But it doesn’t… it doesn’t mean that the rest of the story that you’re hearing around it is true, right? So that is… I think that’s another little technique.
00:28:36.000 –> 00:28:39.000
My ex used to.
00:28:39.000 –> 00:28:43.000
Um, when… there was a lot of ridiculous, awful things that happened and
00:28:43.000 –> 00:28:51.000
He would often preempt me hearing about it from someone else with a little bit of truth around it, and the way that he would spun it to be true.
00:28:51.000 –> 00:28:54.000
And because there was enough truth in it.
00:28:54.000 –> 00:28:56.000
I was
00:28:56.000 –> 00:29:04.000
I could engage with it and I could, I could buy it even though the rest of it was like, I’m not sure that that’s true, but this part is true, so I’m just gonna assume that they’re telling me the truth.
00:29:04.000 –> 00:29:10.000
Now, that’s another technique that I see. I don’t know if you experienced that at all, but just enough of the truth.
00:29:10.000 –> 00:29:14.000
to kind of confuse you again and throw you off and be like, wow, I don’t know, I must be…
00:29:14.000 –> 00:29:18.000
Maybe I didn’t perceive that the right way.
00:29:18.000 –> 00:29:19.000
Yep.
00:29:19.000 –> 00:29:24.000
I, you know, I think it would be hard to like, you know, like as a business, you know we business owners. I would get attacked.
00:29:24.000 –> 00:29:30.000
By my ex-husband, to my core, as my value and self-worth, which is essentially.
00:29:30.000 –> 00:29:35.000
Being a business owner, I will get put down all the time, like, you don’t know what you’re doing.
00:29:35.000 –> 00:29:41.000
You should just go, you shouldn’t even be, have your own business, you should go work for someone else.
00:29:41.000 –> 00:29:50.000
And so, you know, when someone is attacking you in Old France, your identity, my identity as a mother, my identity with work, that really leaves you.
00:29:50.000 –> 00:29:52.000
With nowhere to go and it’s almost, I mean, I own, I felt less than.
00:29:52.000 –> 00:29:56.000
Mm-hmm.
00:29:56.000 –> 00:30:02.000
And part of my healing, and folks who do need to get healing with this, I was seen as part of my.
00:30:02.000 –> 00:30:06.000
You know, I wish I had known you earlier because you’d have been a huge help.
00:30:06.000 –> 00:30:07.000
navigating through this high conflict divorce situation, but I was seeing a.
00:30:07.000 –> 00:30:09.000
Yeah, yeah.
00:30:09.000 –> 00:30:13.000
A counselor that specialize in domestic violence, and I was seeing her weekly.
00:30:13.000 –> 00:30:14.000
For a good solid year because.
00:30:14.000 –> 00:30:16.000
Yeah.
00:30:16.000 –> 00:30:19.000
Your brain is so hooked in.
00:30:19.000 –> 00:30:23.000
And you have to entangle and untangle, untangle it and unhook it.
00:30:23.000 –> 00:30:28.000
Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
00:30:28.000 –> 00:30:29.000
Yeah.
00:30:29.000 –> 00:30:31.000
And get back to normal again, cause after 25 years, it’s a mine.
00:30:31.000 –> 00:30:32.000
fine mess up there.
00:30:32.000 –> 00:30:37.000
It is, yeah. And I think that clarity is really hard to see when you’re still in that home or in that dynamic.
00:30:37.000 –> 00:30:39.000
in it. Right.
00:30:39.000 –> 00:30:44.000
And, um, yeah, in fact, I would encourage, if somebody is like, wow, am I in this? I don’t… that’s kind of… this kind of feels familiar.
00:30:44.000 –> 00:30:47.000
Are you in this room? Right.
00:30:47.000 –> 00:30:53.000
to just try to create in a way that isn’t… you’re not starting a fight in a.
00:30:53.000 –> 00:30:55.000
genuine way, create some space for yourself.
00:30:55.000 –> 00:31:01.000
See if you can get on a trip, go away, get some distance out of the house where you have time to think without their presence there and without that hook being available.
00:31:01.000 –> 00:31:05.000
Oh, if you can.
00:31:05.000 –> 00:31:09.000
If you can.
00:31:09.000 –> 00:31:10.000
Yeah, yeah.
00:31:10.000 –> 00:31:11.000
I wasn’t allowed to go in church by myself. It was like, how dare you? How dare you go on a trip to go see your sister?
00:31:11.000 –> 00:31:12.000
Because you’re going to take time away from me and the family.
00:31:12.000 –> 00:31:14.000
Yeah. That’s right. Yeah.
00:31:14.000 –> 00:31:18.000
So the family was used as a big manipulation tool.
00:31:18.000 –> 00:31:19.000
I really didn’t go anywhere.
00:31:19.000 –> 00:31:22.000
Yeah, for sure. Yeah. I think, I think part of the thing that we.
00:31:22.000 –> 00:31:27.000
you know, I just stopped…
00:31:27.000 –> 00:31:28.000
Hmm.
00:31:28.000 –> 00:31:32.000
really thinking that I could say something like that, right? But some of the work that I do with people now as our separating is, like, you get to say.
00:31:32.000 –> 00:31:33.000
Don’t talk to me that way. You know this isn’t about my family.
00:31:33.000 –> 00:31:35.000
You do? You do. Yeah.
00:31:35.000 –> 00:31:43.000
I need to take this trip for myself, I need some time away, and I’m… this is how that’s gonna go, and I’m sorry that, you know, that’s upsetting for you, but I need to do this for me.
00:31:43.000 –> 00:31:48.000
Yeah. Yeah.
00:31:48.000 –> 00:31:49.000
Right.
00:31:49.000 –> 00:31:53.000
And, like, we forget. It’s like that elephant chained, you know, for years, who, when the chain is off, you don’t even run away anymore because you just forget that you have that option.
00:31:53.000 –> 00:31:54.000
Yeah, oh my gosh.
00:31:54.000 –> 00:31:57.000
So that is some of the work that I do with people, is like, remember,
00:31:57.000 –> 00:32:03.000
You don’t have to jump on a call just because they’re calling you. I know you had to do that in the past to stay safe.
00:32:03.000 –> 00:32:04.000
That is so true.
00:32:04.000 –> 00:32:07.000
But you don’t have to do that anymore. Or they can text you, and you can let it sit there for a couple hours if you need to.
00:32:07.000 –> 00:32:10.000
Yeah.
00:32:10.000 –> 00:32:13.000
You don’t have to, because that training of, like,
00:32:13.000 –> 00:32:14.000
You have to respond.
00:32:14.000 –> 00:32:15.000
Why didn’t you pick up the phone? Yeah, you have to respond.
00:32:15.000 –> 00:32:16.000
Patrick’s fine.
00:32:16.000 –> 00:32:18.000
Yeah, so that distance, I think.
00:32:18.000 –> 00:32:21.000
However you get it, um, provides some.
00:32:21.000 –> 00:32:30.000
clarity, and like, oh, I am… I am stuck in this, like, swirling soup, where you just… you cannot see it clearly.
00:32:30.000 –> 00:32:35.000
And someone outside can be so invaluable to name it.
00:32:35.000 –> 00:32:36.000
And and and help solidify you in some of that, in that confusion.
00:32:36.000 –> 00:32:46.000
Name it. You know, and that’s why just kind of going back, that’s why it’s important for people to work with.
00:32:46.000 –> 00:32:51.000
with you, with a high-conflict divorce coach, because in a way, you can.
00:32:51.000 –> 00:32:57.000
Provide that, again, that objective lens like, okay, no, this isn’t okay.
00:32:57.000 –> 00:32:58.000
And I get it, he’s texting you, cause you.
00:32:58.000 –> 00:33:00.000
Mm-hmm.
00:33:00.000 –> 00:33:03.000
You have to train people how to respond in the sense that.
00:33:03.000 –> 00:33:06.000
Because you’re going to have to tell them no, or you’re gonna have to repeat what.
00:33:06.000 –> 00:33:08.000
Mm-hmm.
00:33:08.000 –> 00:33:10.000
Whatever you need to say, like, 3, 5 times.
00:33:10.000 –> 00:33:11.000
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:33:11.000 –> 00:33:15.000
Cause they don’t get it, no, I told you.
00:33:15.000 –> 00:33:23.000
A, B, C, D, and then I will get back to you later, whatever it is, and there will be like then you have to you have to repeat yourself again and you basically have to say, I’m not.
00:33:23.000 –> 00:33:24.000
I’ve already told you this twice.
00:33:24.000 –> 00:33:25.000
Yeah. Yeah. That’s right. Mm hmm.
00:33:25.000 –> 00:33:30.000
If you text me or if you message me about this, again, I’m not going to respond any further.
00:33:30.000 –> 00:33:31.000
Setting boundaries for yourself.
00:33:31.000 –> 00:33:35.000
Yeah, yep. And I can, I can hear what you’re in your voice. That is how I would talk to a toddler.
00:33:35.000 –> 00:33:36.000
Right? When you’re in the grocery store,
00:33:36.000 –> 00:33:38.000
Yeah. Oh my God.
00:33:38.000 –> 00:33:45.000
And you’re, whatever, your 3-year-old is like, can we please get this? And I’m like, we already told you, remember? We’re gonna go in the store, and we’re just gonna get groceries today, we’re not doing candy.
00:33:45.000 –> 00:33:48.000
But why can’t we get candy? You were gonna say, but I really want this one. This is my favorite, right?
00:33:48.000 –> 00:33:49.000
Wow. Yeah.
00:33:49.000 –> 00:33:53.000
And it, like, dealing, like, dealing with a, like,
00:33:53.000 –> 00:33:57.000
persuasive, angry, volatile, like, small child.
00:33:57.000 –> 00:34:00.000
is… is not an unfair, like.
00:34:00.000 –> 00:34:02.000
comparison, I don’t think, in these situations.
00:34:02.000 –> 00:34:03.000
And it takes so much work, like, to craft an email.
00:34:03.000 –> 00:34:07.000
No, it is. Ooh! Sure does.
00:34:07.000 –> 00:34:08.000
Ugh.
00:34:08.000 –> 00:34:14.000
In response to, you know, just all these accusations with a little bit of, like, I have to address this in there, I mean, it is… it’s so much work.
00:34:14.000 –> 00:34:15.000
It is so much work.
00:34:15.000 –> 00:34:20.000
Like, that is the thing I try to tell my clients, like, please be nice to yourself. Like, this is exhausting.
00:34:20.000 –> 00:34:21.000
to get, you know, you get 5 or 10 emails, let’s say, a day.
00:34:21.000 –> 00:34:25.000
It is exhausting.
00:34:25.000 –> 00:34:26.000
Yeah.
00:34:26.000 –> 00:34:29.000
And you might have an actual job, or you might want to be parenting, or do anything for yourself.
00:34:29.000 –> 00:34:34.000
But instead, you were, like, laboring over, how do I say this in a way that isn’t gonna…
00:34:34.000 –> 00:34:35.000
Blow everything up? How do I tiptoe into this?
00:34:35.000 –> 00:34:38.000
These emails. Right.
00:34:38.000 –> 00:34:41.000
And, you know, it’s just… it’s exhausting. It’s exhausting.
00:34:41.000 –> 00:34:48.000
And that’s what you help people do, you help people learn how to respond to this.
00:34:48.000 –> 00:34:49.000
Yeah.
00:34:49.000 –> 00:34:50.000
Yeah, yeah, and kind of give them permission, kind of name the dynamic that they’re in.
00:34:50.000 –> 00:34:51.000
Uh-huh.
00:34:51.000 –> 00:35:00.000
And enough for them to be like, I can, I see that that’s happening, right? And so I do feel brave enough to take like a tiny little step back and say.
00:35:00.000 –> 00:35:01.000
Right.
00:35:01.000 –> 00:35:02.000
say no on a little thing.
00:35:02.000 –> 00:35:07.000
And those little no’s, they feel very, very scary.
00:35:07.000 –> 00:35:08.000
They do, they do.
00:35:08.000 –> 00:35:12.000
Um, yeah, yeah. I had a client who was separated in top and bottom of a house.
00:35:12.000 –> 00:35:15.000
And it was very hostile.
00:35:15.000 –> 00:35:21.000
Wow.
00:35:21.000 –> 00:35:22.000
Wow.
00:35:22.000 –> 00:35:24.000
And she was telling me that she still makes dinner for him. And I was like, oh, wow, why are you doing that? And she was like
00:35:24.000 –> 00:35:26.000
Oh.
00:35:26.000 –> 00:35:28.000
I don’t… it’s just what I’ve always done.
00:35:28.000 –> 00:35:30.000
Yeah, I didn’t know I didn’t have a choice.
00:35:30.000 –> 00:35:35.000
Yeah, yeah, and of course, from an outside, someone would be like, that’s ridiculous, of course you have a choice.
00:35:35.000 –> 00:35:36.000
Right, yeah.
00:35:36.000 –> 00:35:41.000
But that’s what makes these relationships are so murky and and.
00:35:41.000 –> 00:35:44.000
hooked and, um, and complicated, and so.
00:35:44.000 –> 00:35:51.000
Yeah, it’s, you really do need that outside perspective, yeah, and like, like you started to say, like, in court.
00:35:51.000 –> 00:35:54.000
Like, I do this because I did.
00:35:54.000 –> 00:35:55.000
I did everything wrong, right? Like, I…
00:35:55.000 –> 00:35:58.000
In court, yes. Yeah, let’s go back to court.
00:35:58.000 –> 00:35:59.000
Uh-huh.
00:35:59.000 –> 00:36:03.000
swallowed my complaints, I just put my head down and did the next day for years and years.
00:36:03.000 –> 00:36:05.000
And then when I was done with it, like, by the time I got to court.
00:36:05.000 –> 00:36:07.000
Okay. Okay.
00:36:07.000 –> 00:36:10.000
I was, like, not having it anymore.
00:36:10.000 –> 00:36:11.000
And I sat in court like this.
00:36:11.000 –> 00:36:13.000
Angry, angry, giving them the mean eye.
00:36:13.000 –> 00:36:16.000
just shooting daggers at him.
00:36:16.000 –> 00:36:17.000
And I was like, you know,
00:36:17.000 –> 00:36:18.000
Okay. Yeah.
00:36:18.000 –> 00:36:20.000
I’m done. I am done with all that, right?
00:36:20.000 –> 00:36:21.000
You had face, wrestling face.
00:36:21.000 –> 00:36:27.000
I had… yeah, and I have face at rest anyway, but this was, like, intentional.
00:36:27.000 –> 00:36:33.000
Um, and, you know, um, and then he was sitting there, like you described, just like.
00:36:33.000 –> 00:36:36.000
You know, he had learned all this empathy from me.
00:36:36.000 –> 00:36:42.000
Just like, yeah, just really calm and like kind of do you see what I have to deal with? Like, can you see why this is so hard? Can you see why this is high conflict?
00:36:42.000 –> 00:36:45.000
I can look at her. Yeah, it’s her.
00:36:45.000 –> 00:36:48.000
Because look at… look at how angry she is, you know.
00:36:48.000 –> 00:36:49.000
And so…
00:36:49.000 –> 00:36:55.000
Yeah. And it’s fine. I’m such a nice guy.
00:36:55.000 –> 00:36:56.000
Ah.
00:36:56.000 –> 00:36:59.000
I’m such a nice guy, and I can’t believe this is happening, like, oh, everybody loves me, but she’s just so bitter, or so determined to, you know, not be satisfied with her, ruin me, yeah.
00:36:59.000 –> 00:37:01.000
Ruin me!
00:37:01.000 –> 00:37:07.000
Yeah. Yeah. So that is part of the work I do is to be like, you have to understand.
00:37:07.000 –> 00:37:08.000
You are only now being able to name this dynamic that you’ve been in for years.
00:37:08.000 –> 00:37:11.000
Okay. Yeah.
00:37:11.000 –> 00:37:17.000
Judge is not going to be able to pick up on that in 20 minutes, 10 minutes of your case, right?
00:37:17.000 –> 00:37:19.000
And your attorney might not be able to pick up on it.
00:37:19.000 –> 00:37:20.000
And so…
00:37:20.000 –> 00:37:23.000
Oh, your attorney would not be able to pick up on it unless they’ve been through it.
00:37:23.000 –> 00:37:24.000
Yeah.
00:37:24.000 –> 00:37:28.000
And Leslie’s been through it, yeah. And I think that is a really tricky part of this dynamic, is it’s really hard to explain.
00:37:28.000 –> 00:37:32.000
It is.
00:37:32.000 –> 00:37:33.000
Yeah.
00:37:33.000 –> 00:37:35.000
Unless you are in it, and then you’re like, that is exactly, I know that, right?
00:37:35.000 –> 00:37:36.000
But… but it is really hard to see.
00:37:36.000 –> 00:37:37.000
Uh-huh.
00:37:37.000 –> 00:37:41.000
Yeah, so yeah, I talk with people about, like, how, how.
00:37:41.000 –> 00:37:42.000
let’s say a judge has 15 minutes.
00:37:42.000 –> 00:37:43.000
Okay.
00:37:43.000 –> 00:37:50.000
And they’re looking at your documentation, they’re looking at their documentation, they’re listening to your stories.
00:37:50.000 –> 00:37:51.000
Um, you have to play a role.
00:37:51.000 –> 00:37:58.000
Right. You do.
00:37:58.000 –> 00:37:59.000
Get it all up.
00:37:59.000 –> 00:38:02.000
And you have to, like, I tell people, right here, you and me, get it all out. Like, this is unfair. It is unjust that you should have to
00:38:02.000 –> 00:38:05.000
Co-parent with somebody who is abusing you.
00:38:05.000 –> 00:38:09.000
Maybe somebody who’s abusing the children,
00:38:09.000 –> 00:38:10.000
this
00:38:10.000 –> 00:38:17.000
It is so unjust that you have to appear agreeable and amenable, and that you’re following all the rules with somebody who is breaking them all behind the scenes. So unjust.
00:38:17.000 –> 00:38:19.000
oh my gosh, yes!
00:38:19.000 –> 00:38:20.000
Though unjust. But…
00:38:20.000 –> 00:38:28.000
And the children are just pawns! They’re just weapons to get to you.
00:38:28.000 –> 00:38:29.000
They don’t.
00:38:29.000 –> 00:38:31.000
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And oftentimes they don’t know it, right? They don’t know it. They are pulled into it. They’re just pleasing the scariest person person, right? They don’t, they don’t know it.
00:38:31.000 –> 00:38:34.000
Oh my gosh, that is so true.
00:38:34.000 –> 00:38:36.000
Yeah, yeah.
00:38:36.000 –> 00:38:39.000
But anyway, I think it’s just…
00:38:39.000 –> 00:38:40.000
Um, like, I talk to people about… it’s so tempting to be like, I cannot believe he would do this. He did this whole blah blah blah blah.
00:38:40.000 –> 00:38:47.000
Yeah.
00:38:47.000 –> 00:38:49.000
this, like, I’m finally figuring out labels for this person, for this behavior, and I want to throw them out to the world.
00:38:49.000 –> 00:38:53.000
Yeah, yeah. Right.
00:38:53.000 –> 00:38:56.000
And I talk to people about, like, please don’t do that, like.
00:38:56.000 –> 00:39:02.000
talk about your clear, objective concerns of the behaviors that you’re seeing, and how do we
00:39:02.000 –> 00:39:07.000
I work with people on like, how do you go into your first appointment with your attorney?
00:39:07.000 –> 00:39:08.000
So that you’re not flooding them and overwhelming them, because they’re also humans, and they don’t know, they don’t know what’s walking in the door, right?
00:39:08.000 –> 00:39:18.000
Okay.
00:39:18.000 –> 00:39:19.000
Yeah. Okay.
00:39:19.000 –> 00:39:22.000
How do we really clearly document what has been happening and make it really easy for them to see so that they can do what they do best.
00:39:22.000 –> 00:39:27.000
Which is, know the legal system, know how to write which motions when.
00:39:27.000 –> 00:39:30.000
Um, all that sort of thing, right? And so.
00:39:30.000 –> 00:39:34.000
Um, yeah, I usually tell people the work I do, it’s, like, solidly between
00:39:34.000 –> 00:39:35.000
An attorney and a therapist. And I am neither of those, right? I’m very clearly neither of those.
00:39:35.000 –> 00:39:40.000
Oh, okay.
00:39:40.000 –> 00:39:47.000
But there is all of this space in between where I do think you have to have lived this to.
00:39:47.000 –> 00:39:53.000
Makes sense of it. And I have, you know, I have been in medicine for 28 years and.
00:39:53.000 –> 00:39:59.000
Um, so I have a lot of practice of, like, having a problem or a situation come through my door, like, over and over again, right? And I’m like, what are the patterns here?
00:39:59.000 –> 00:40:02.000
Okay. Yeah.
00:40:02.000 –> 00:40:06.000
What do I see? And I’m creating a plan, right? And so…
00:40:06.000 –> 00:40:07.000
That is the same work that I’m doing, right? And
00:40:07.000 –> 00:40:10.000
Oh. Uh-huh.
00:40:10.000 –> 00:40:14.000
And so, like, you know this now and but like.
00:40:14.000 –> 00:40:25.000
I can hear the same, the same stories, right? It’s the, I just got 30 texts last night because I told them I didn’t want to meet in person. I said we’re only going to do things over email now. And I just, I got this barrage of emails.
00:40:25.000 –> 00:40:30.000
Or, um, just, there’s all these patterns, right? The kids being involved, the…
00:40:30.000 –> 00:40:31.000
The public charm, private harm situation that we’re having. There’s…
00:40:31.000 –> 00:40:37.000
wait public charm private harm oh my gosh I love that.
00:40:37.000 –> 00:40:38.000
I love it. I know. I mean, I don’t love it, but it’s… it…
00:40:38.000 –> 00:40:41.000
That is so such a good description.
00:40:41.000 –> 00:40:44.000
It’s a good description, yeah. Yeah.
00:40:44.000 –> 00:40:52.000
And so, that’s what I do when clients come in, right? And I’m like, I’m listening for that, and I’m categorizing how do we put these stories that you’re telling me.
00:40:52.000 –> 00:40:55.000
How do we put those in documentation so that your attorney can do something with it, right?
00:40:55.000 –> 00:41:00.000
Yes. Right. How do we tell your story to the court?
00:41:00.000 –> 00:41:03.000
Without you attacking the other person.
00:41:03.000 –> 00:41:08.000
And saying he did this, this, this, this, and this.
00:41:08.000 –> 00:41:09.000
Because…
00:41:09.000 –> 00:41:12.000
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And basically you’re creating a narrative that is not what people think of high conflict, right? You’re not falling into that.
00:41:12.000 –> 00:41:14.000
Yeah.
00:41:14.000 –> 00:41:19.000
that, you know, you’re just refusing to get along, right? You have to demonstrate in your communication.
00:41:19.000 –> 00:41:22.000
that you are responding to their concerns.
00:41:22.000 –> 00:41:23.000
Right. Exactly.
00:41:23.000 –> 00:41:29.000
valid or not, you have to demonstrate to the court that you are being reasonable and responsive and centering the children.
00:41:29.000 –> 00:41:30.000
Yeah. So true. They are not.
00:41:30.000 –> 00:41:37.000
And you have to do all of that knowing full well that they are not doing that, and they’re doing everything they can to blow that up.
00:41:37.000 –> 00:41:41.000
And it is, it’s a, like, it’s a full-time job in and of itself. So, if you’re listening and you’re thinking, why am I so tired?
00:41:41.000 –> 00:41:45.000
It is, and…
00:41:45.000 –> 00:41:50.000
It is exhausting. It is a full-time job to try to manage the communication part of it, so that is a thing that I try to help people with.
00:41:50.000 –> 00:41:59.000
It is. You know, and I need to repeat that again because what you said was so important in the fact that you’re helping people.
00:41:59.000 –> 00:42:02.000
In court, in their documentation.
00:42:02.000 –> 00:42:03.000
Mm-hmm.
00:42:03.000 –> 00:42:06.000
Show how to be reasonable, responsive, and child-centered.
00:42:06.000 –> 00:42:07.000
Because that is going to be the court’s focus.
00:42:07.000 –> 00:42:10.000
Mm-hmm. Yep.
00:42:10.000 –> 00:42:12.000
And.
00:42:12.000 –> 00:42:18.000
people, you know, to get out of this to, um, when you’re trying to extricate yourself from this relationship, that’s why.
00:42:18.000 –> 00:42:23.000
Having supported someone like yourself to to show people, provide that guideline.
00:42:23.000 –> 00:42:24.000
Look, this is how we’re going to craft your story, where we’re showing the court your reasonable, responsive, and you’re remaining child-centered.
00:42:24.000 –> 00:42:30.000
Yeah, yeah.
00:42:30.000 –> 00:42:31.000
Yeah. Yeah.
00:42:31.000 –> 00:42:33.000
So important.
00:42:33.000 –> 00:42:34.000
Oh my gosh.
00:42:34.000 –> 00:42:37.000
Tricky stuff.
00:42:37.000 –> 00:42:38.000
Yeah, tricky stuff. So.
00:42:38.000 –> 00:42:41.000
Yeah. Yep.
00:42:41.000 –> 00:42:43.000
My goodness.
00:42:43.000 –> 00:42:45.000
So we covered again.
00:42:45.000 –> 00:42:47.000
About how.
00:42:47.000 –> 00:42:52.000
How actually the term high conflict divorce is a misnomer.
00:42:52.000 –> 00:42:55.000
Because it’s really not about 2 people.
00:42:55.000 –> 00:42:59.000
Being petty in court like the rose of the War of the Roses.
00:42:59.000 –> 00:43:00.000
It’s really disguised as the fact that there’s a pattern of abuse that’s been going on, it’s been going on for years.
00:43:00.000 –> 00:43:06.000
Mm-hmm.
00:43:06.000 –> 00:43:11.000
And working with you, it helps people to identify that.
00:43:11.000 –> 00:43:15.000
And also the how to present your story.
00:43:15.000 –> 00:43:22.000
In court, so you’re not coming across as the angry and bitter and reasonable spouse.
00:43:22.000 –> 00:43:23.000
Anything else?
00:43:23.000 –> 00:43:27.000
Yeah. Yeah, I was just going to say also, like, I try to help people.
00:43:27.000 –> 00:43:29.000
remember.
00:43:29.000 –> 00:43:32.000
Who do you want to be in this world?
00:43:32.000 –> 00:43:33.000
Wow. Yeah.
00:43:33.000 –> 00:43:36.000
Like, right now, you are in… you’re in necessary reactive.
00:43:36.000 –> 00:43:40.000
mode you’re trying to, um, anticipate these.
00:43:40.000 –> 00:43:47.000
Behaviors from your ex, the harm that’s being caused to your children, the manipulation that’s happening with them.
00:43:47.000 –> 00:43:50.000
You’re trying to do all these things, but also,
00:43:50.000 –> 00:43:54.000
You are not going to be here forever. And like.
00:43:54.000 –> 00:44:01.000
If you can… I try to help people be like, what kind of dad do you want to be? How do you… what do you want to see your… how do you want to see yourself in this world?
00:44:01.000 –> 00:44:05.000
And how can you also be moving toward that while you’re in this shitstorm?
00:44:05.000 –> 00:44:12.000
Because that matters, and that provides even just a little bit of agency, which.
00:44:12.000 –> 00:44:13.000
I think is is one of the most scarce.
00:44:13.000 –> 00:44:16.000
Mm-hmm.
00:44:16.000 –> 00:44:21.000
sensations when you’re going through a situation like this, is feeling like you have any control over anything.
00:44:21.000 –> 00:44:26.000
you… they’re gonna do whatever they want in court, they’re doing whatever they want behind the scenes.
00:44:26.000 –> 00:44:38.000
They don’t have the same integrity or moral basement that you’re working with, and they know that you’re gonna stay with that. They know that you’re going to honor your beliefs, and they’re gonna swipe underneath it anyway.
00:44:38.000 –> 00:44:41.000
And there’s so much, like, defensive action, right?
00:44:41.000 –> 00:44:45.000
But also the really important, like, offensive.
00:44:45.000 –> 00:44:46.000
moves are like, I have to set aside time.
00:44:46.000 –> 00:44:48.000
They don’t. Yeah. Right.
00:44:48.000 –> 00:44:51.000
To maybe meditate for 10 minutes.
00:44:51.000 –> 00:44:52.000
Oh my gosh, yes.
00:44:52.000 –> 00:44:57.000
to just to breathe and remind myself, like, I have not been okay for all those years.
00:44:57.000 –> 00:45:00.000
But right now, in this very moment,
00:45:00.000 –> 00:45:01.000
I am okay, and you tell your body, right? We can settle here for a minute.
00:45:01.000 –> 00:45:05.000
Hmm.
00:45:05.000 –> 00:45:10.000
And that is so shocking if you have been in protective.
00:45:10.000 –> 00:45:14.000
you know, flight freeing, freeze, fawn mode for all for all the years.
00:45:14.000 –> 00:45:15.000
Those little reminders, those matter for helping you move through this in a way where you don’t develop.
00:45:15.000 –> 00:45:21.000
On Greg, all those years.
00:45:21.000 –> 00:45:28.000
Auto immune disease and you don’t, you know, all these, all these lists of physical things that, that people develop.
00:45:28.000 –> 00:45:38.000
Um, when there isn’t a healthy outlet for that. So, yeah, that’s the other thing I try to help people, is like, who… who are you? How can we feed that? Like, what makes you…
00:45:38.000 –> 00:45:46.000
Makes you feel like you can relax. What, what makes you laugh so hard? And in the middle of all these things that seem impossible, how can you.
00:45:46.000 –> 00:45:47.000
find a little bit of time to make sure you do that and.
00:45:47.000 –> 00:45:49.000
Yeah.
00:45:49.000 –> 00:45:51.000
I think we all need permission to do that, right? We need permission from somebody else. Yeah.
00:45:51.000 –> 00:46:00.000
How can you find a little bit of peace or an anchor in that storm?
00:46:00.000 –> 00:46:01.000
That’s what it is.
00:46:01.000 –> 00:46:03.000
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
00:46:03.000 –> 00:46:04.000
Yeah.
00:46:04.000 –> 00:46:08.000
And you and for people, I think, you know.
00:46:08.000 –> 00:46:09.000
You will get through it.
00:46:09.000 –> 00:46:10.000
Yeah. Yeah.
00:46:10.000 –> 00:46:14.000
You will get through it, and you can get through it. You can get through it.
00:46:14.000 –> 00:46:18.000
Yeah, yeah, and it doesn’t, it doesn’t really feel very possible.
00:46:18.000 –> 00:46:20.000
It doesn’t.
00:46:20.000 –> 00:46:21.000
No, it doesn’t.
00:46:21.000 –> 00:46:24.000
You know, when you have little kids, and you… you’re looking at all the years until they turn 18 of dealing
00:46:24.000 –> 00:46:29.000
With this, it feels really, really overwhelming.
00:46:29.000 –> 00:46:30.000
Yes.
00:46:30.000 –> 00:46:36.000
But it is possible and and you can learn ways of communicating that shut down this, that hook that you’ve that you’ve felt.
00:46:36.000 –> 00:46:43.000
You can learn ways to find, like, you do have a little bit more power, and you can practice these, like, baby steps away from that dynamic.
00:46:43.000 –> 00:46:45.000
And that’s… that is very…
00:46:45.000 –> 00:46:49.000
That’s very strong, to have that little bit of, like, oh,
00:46:49.000 –> 00:46:54.000
I just decided to do that and nobody died we can do, I can do that, I can try a harder thing.
00:46:54.000 –> 00:46:55.000
Another day. Yum.
00:46:55.000 –> 00:47:00.000
It’s literally one day at a time. And speaking of like these, okay, what helped me is that.
00:47:00.000 –> 00:47:05.000
You know, and I’m… my divorce finally got finalized after 2 years.
00:47:05.000 –> 00:47:10.000
And we had to use a parenting app for communications, because again, you know, thank God, because I needed that boundary.
00:47:10.000 –> 00:47:11.000
Mm-hmm.
00:47:11.000 –> 00:47:17.000
And so folks definitely get a parenting app so you’re not just getting flooded all the time.
00:47:17.000 –> 00:47:18.000
Because with a parenting app, even though the notification may come through that they sent you a message.
00:47:18.000 –> 00:47:23.000
Yeah.
00:47:23.000 –> 00:47:25.000
You can choose to.
00:47:25.000 –> 00:47:27.000
You don’t have to look at it right away.
00:47:27.000 –> 00:47:33.000
And so, in fact, just the other day, like, I saw the notifications that come up, and I was like, okay, and then I forgot about it, and I got busy.
00:47:33.000 –> 00:47:34.000
And then when I looked at it like a day later.
00:47:34.000 –> 00:47:35.000
Mm-hmm.
00:47:35.000 –> 00:47:44.000
Sure enough, there it was, like, three messages, and then the second message was, hello? Because I didn’t respond to the other messages. I’m like, whatever, dude.
00:47:44.000 –> 00:47:45.000
I don’t have to respond right away.
00:47:45.000 –> 00:47:47.000
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
00:47:47.000 –> 00:47:54.000
Yeah, it’s very distressing for someone who has required that for all the years to realize that you might suddenly not be at their beck and call and
00:47:54.000 –> 00:48:04.000
And just do whatever they want. It’s very distressing for them, I think.
00:48:04.000 –> 00:48:05.000
Yep.
00:48:05.000 –> 00:48:08.000
Yeah, but even so, I can still, in a way, I can almost see myself, oh, I better watch out, because now he’s, uh, we’re talking now, I’m finally okay with finally talking to him on the parenting communication app too.
00:48:08.000 –> 00:48:10.000
Yeah. Yeah.
00:48:10.000 –> 00:48:13.000
And I’m like, okay, be careful that you’re not getting hooked into being back into his beck and call because he’s.
00:48:13.000 –> 00:48:16.000
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:48:16.000 –> 00:48:17.000
Yeah, absolutely.
00:48:17.000 –> 00:48:18.000
calling you and then messaging you.
00:48:18.000 –> 00:48:19.000
Be careful.
00:48:19.000 –> 00:48:25.000
Yeah, yeah. And that takes a lot of work of just like noticing, you know, like you mentioned, like alcohol for you was a.
00:48:25.000 –> 00:48:26.000
A strategy for, you know, numbing from this.
00:48:26.000 –> 00:48:28.000
Yeah, my coping mechanism. Oh.
00:48:28.000 –> 00:48:37.000
Yeah, for me, I think it was dissociating. And I didn’t know… I wouldn’t have known that I was doing that. All I know is that there are a lot of things that I don’t remember.
00:48:37.000 –> 00:48:39.000
that I should have remembered, you know?
00:48:39.000 –> 00:48:46.000
And that was another thing that I got shamed for, right? Like, well, you don’t remember. And I would be like, you know, you’re right, I don’t, so…
00:48:46.000 –> 00:48:53.000
I’ll, I’ll go with what you thought happened because my memory is bad. But I think I learned to do that. I learned to just like.
00:48:53.000 –> 00:48:59.000
It’s not bad, I don’t… I don’t remember what I was doing, but I know that that was a strategy that I used.
00:48:59.000 –> 00:49:00.000
Um, to just…
00:49:00.000 –> 00:49:01.000
Wow.
00:49:01.000 –> 00:49:03.000
It just hurts too much.
00:49:03.000 –> 00:49:04.000
hurts too much. Yeah.
00:49:04.000 –> 00:49:07.000
Yes, it does, it does, right? Because, you know, here it is, this, you
00:49:07.000 –> 00:49:11.000
I went into this marriage thinking that it was going to be forever.
00:49:11.000 –> 00:49:12.000
Uh-hmm.
00:49:12.000 –> 00:49:17.000
And my mom and my dad were divorced. They were, you know, they went through a couple marriages, and I was determined. I was not gonna get divorced.
00:49:17.000 –> 00:49:19.000
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
00:49:19.000 –> 00:49:21.000
I was going to make this work.
00:49:21.000 –> 00:49:23.000
Yeah. Yeah.
00:49:23.000 –> 00:49:25.000
And wow, I wish.
00:49:25.000 –> 00:49:28.000
I wish I had given myself permission.
00:49:28.000 –> 00:49:29.000
To be like, no, it’s okay.
00:49:29.000 –> 00:49:30.000
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
00:49:30.000 –> 00:49:32.000
You’re not a failure.
00:49:32.000 –> 00:49:33.000
It’s okay.
00:49:33.000 –> 00:49:35.000
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that’s right. And on the other hand.
00:49:35.000 –> 00:49:42.000
I do think it’s important for people to have permission to stay in that relationship if it’s the safest thing for themselves and their children.
00:49:42.000 –> 00:49:44.000
Yes, of course. Yes.
00:49:44.000 –> 00:49:47.000
And I may… yeah, when we talked earlier, I may have mentioned this, but…
00:49:47.000 –> 00:49:48.000
Uh-huh. Oh.
00:49:48.000 –> 00:49:52.000
If I had known what was gonna… what my kids were gonna go through and what I was gonna go through,
00:49:52.000 –> 00:49:53.000
By saying I’m not doing this anymore.
00:49:53.000 –> 00:49:56.000
Mm-hmm.
00:49:56.000 –> 00:49:59.000
I don’t think I would have… at that time, I would not have had the strength to do it if I would have known how hard it was going to be. It was awful. It was really, truly awful.
00:49:59.000 –> 00:50:03.000
Yeah. It was hard. It is awful.
00:50:03.000 –> 00:50:04.000
And you do have to take that into consideration. You do have to think like.
00:50:04.000 –> 00:50:09.000
It is possible.
00:50:09.000 –> 00:50:18.000
if I can assume that this post-separation abuse is gonna happen, and they’re gonna come at me with every resource, and they’re gonna communicate to our community.
00:50:18.000 –> 00:50:19.000
Yes. Yeah.
00:50:19.000 –> 00:50:25.000
like, oh, this is what she’s doing, she’s gonna probably come to you and say it was this, but you can just know, you know, like, all… if I would have known all that, like.
00:50:25.000 –> 00:50:30.000
It’s not nothing and and yes, I do think the children will be.
00:50:30.000 –> 00:50:35.000
They, you know, kids learn skills that maybe we wish they didn’t have so soon.
00:50:35.000 –> 00:50:36.000
But, um…
00:50:36.000 –> 00:50:37.000
Oh my gosh, yes, yes.
00:50:37.000 –> 00:50:42.000
But it’s a decision that you get to make and there is no shame for staying.
00:50:42.000 –> 00:50:43.000
There’s not.
00:50:43.000 –> 00:50:48.000
And deciding, you know what, I’m gonna stick this out, I’m gonna learn things about myself, I’m gonna get strong within me,
00:50:48.000 –> 00:50:49.000
Yeah.
00:50:49.000 –> 00:50:53.000
But for the sake of whatever, I’m gonna stay, there’s no shame in that.
00:50:53.000 –> 00:50:55.000
And there’s no shame in saying, I’m not doing this anymore.
00:50:55.000 –> 00:50:56.000
And, you know,
00:50:56.000 –> 00:50:57.000
Yeah. Yeah.
00:50:57.000 –> 00:51:01.000
There’s so many ways to shame, particularly women, I think.
00:51:01.000 –> 00:51:13.000
It’s in a way, I remember I did a consultation with a woman and she was in this exact same position that we were, and I, based on my experience, I said, look, if your… I forgot if their child was either junior or senior, and I said, you know what?
00:51:13.000 –> 00:51:15.000
If you can’t stick it out,
00:51:15.000 –> 00:51:16.000
Yeah, yeah.
00:51:16.000 –> 00:51:21.000
Until your child graduates from high school, then do it, because it is going to be so hard.
00:51:21.000 –> 00:51:26.000
And if you’ve got it only a year or 2 year left and they’re gonna be in college, then do it then.
00:51:26.000 –> 00:51:30.000
Because it’s just not worth it, and like, you know, she was able.
00:51:30.000 –> 00:51:31.000
to kind of stick it out, and maybe, again, maybe there was only a year left before the child graduated, but.
00:51:31.000 –> 00:51:35.000
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
00:51:35.000 –> 00:51:36.000
Yeah. You can stick it out and do it.
00:51:36.000 –> 00:51:39.000
Yeah, that’s right. And of course, different situation when you are
00:51:39.000 –> 00:51:41.000
worried about your safety, right? If there have been threats on your life.
00:51:41.000 –> 00:51:43.000
Yes.
00:51:43.000 –> 00:51:45.000
Um, and I always just think it’s important to mention.
00:51:45.000 –> 00:51:48.000
If if you have been threatened.
00:51:48.000 –> 00:51:49.000
Um, or you’ve had a hand around your neck.
00:51:49.000 –> 00:51:50.000
Oh my gosh.
00:51:50.000 –> 00:51:57.000
Um, that needs to be taken seriously, and that the data shows, right, that is a progression.
00:51:57.000 –> 00:51:59.000
towards serious harm. And so.
00:51:59.000 –> 00:52:03.000
That is a whole other topic, I think, but I just want to note that as well.
00:52:03.000 –> 00:52:10.000
You know what is really interesting, like, wait, because again, my spouse and I were together for 25 years from when I was in my late 20s to my.
00:52:10.000 –> 00:52:13.000
I don’t know what, early 50s, but…
00:52:13.000 –> 00:52:15.000
In the, I think after we had our kids.
00:52:15.000 –> 00:52:17.000
Maybe it was around year seven or whatever.
00:52:17.000 –> 00:52:21.000
We had gotten into this argument, and I remember.
00:52:21.000 –> 00:52:25.000
I was up against the fridge, and he had his hand around my neck, up against the fridge.
00:52:25.000 –> 00:52:26.000
Hmm…
00:52:26.000 –> 00:52:28.000
And it was tight enough to exert pressure.
00:52:28.000 –> 00:52:30.000
But not… I mean, I could obviously still breathe.
00:52:30.000 –> 00:52:31.000
Mm-hmm.
00:52:31.000 –> 00:52:34.000
But the interesting thing was, was that.
00:52:34.000 –> 00:52:39.000
It didn’t progress physically beyond that.
00:52:39.000 –> 00:52:43.000
It’s almost like he knew, like, okay, I crossed this line. If I continue along this line.
00:52:43.000 –> 00:52:45.000
Then she will leave.
00:52:45.000 –> 00:52:46.000
So he pulled that back.
00:52:46.000 –> 00:52:47.000
Yeah, yeah.
00:52:47.000 –> 00:52:51.000
But of course, that verbal and that emotional abuse.
00:52:51.000 –> 00:52:52.000
Wow.
00:52:52.000 –> 00:52:58.000
Yeah, yeah. And actually, I think that that is a skill that I don’t think we recognize these personality types who have
00:52:58.000 –> 00:53:00.000
for survival from their perspective, have learned these skills.
00:53:00.000 –> 00:53:04.000
Yeah.
00:53:04.000 –> 00:53:05.000
Yes. Yes.
00:53:05.000 –> 00:53:08.000
They know very well how far they can push, and when they need to pull back. And it’s different, like, you know,
00:53:08.000 –> 00:53:15.000
My instructor used this term when you’re going through this, as it’s like you’ve been assigned your very own personal terrorist.
00:53:15.000 –> 00:53:16.000
Oh my gosh. Yeah.
00:53:16.000 –> 00:53:22.000
And they have lived with you for all the years. They know exactly what tone of voice will send you, they know.
00:53:22.000 –> 00:53:23.000
Yeah.
00:53:23.000 –> 00:53:27.000
what tone of voice will make you shrink, they know exactly how to manipulate you in that.
00:53:27.000 –> 00:53:32.000
And they know how far they can push you, and I saw that with my own kids, they.
00:53:32.000 –> 00:53:33.000
You know, my ex could, like…
00:53:33.000 –> 00:53:34.000
How far they can proceed.
00:53:34.000 –> 00:53:39.000
be an and be neglectful, and then he would notice that.
00:53:39.000 –> 00:53:44.000
It might have gone too far and he would be like, Hey, let’s meet up for coffee. I miss you.
00:53:44.000 –> 00:53:48.000
And like, he knows exactly how far before someone’s gonna.
00:53:48.000 –> 00:53:49.000
Before someone’s gonna call it, so…
00:53:49.000 –> 00:53:51.000
Wow. Wow.
00:53:51.000 –> 00:53:52.000
Yeah, yeah.
00:53:52.000 –> 00:53:56.000
Wow, heavy, yeah, heavy stuff.
00:53:56.000 –> 00:53:57.000
It is heavy stuff, yeah.
00:53:57.000 –> 00:53:58.000
Heavy, but it’s also important and
00:53:58.000 –> 00:53:59.000
It is.
00:53:59.000 –> 00:54:03.000
And thank you so much, Jody, for coming on and.
00:54:03.000 –> 00:54:04.000
Yeah, my pleasure.
00:54:04.000 –> 00:54:07.000
and telling us about this important service that you’re doing.
00:54:07.000 –> 00:54:13.000
To help people challenge… go through this experience? And how can people work with you?
00:54:13.000 –> 00:54:14.000
How do they get rid of you?
00:54:14.000 –> 00:54:18.000
Yeah, if you… yeah, my website, Solidarityconsulting.com, is the best place to start.
00:54:18.000 –> 00:54:19.000
Okay.
00:54:19.000 –> 00:54:26.000
Yeah, and I basically just connect with people over time. We do one-on-one sessions. I have a group option.
00:54:26.000 –> 00:54:36.000
And, um, kind of just start with people wherever they’re at. Some people need help, like, am I… am I in a relationship that’s harmful? Sometimes that’s the question, or is the problem with me?
00:54:36.000 –> 00:54:37.000
Right.
00:54:37.000 –> 00:54:42.000
And other people are in this ramp-up of abuse, and they’re like, I do not know what just happened, but.
00:54:42.000 –> 00:54:48.000
I said I want a divorce, and all has broken loose, and I need… I need help. Or I’m 2 years into this, and…
00:54:48.000 –> 00:54:50.000
Why are we still in court, and why are we…
00:54:50.000 –> 00:54:57.000
Like, why are we still negotiating the parenting plan? And so, my meet kind of help people wherever they’re at along that.
00:54:57.000 –> 00:54:59.000
Along that stage.
00:54:59.000 –> 00:55:06.000
You know, and you know what’s really interesting, just backtracking a little bit, I… I was, um, I had a client that kind of went through this situation.
00:55:06.000 –> 00:55:08.000
And I remember we were.
00:55:08.000 –> 00:55:11.000
We had to go to trial.
00:55:11.000 –> 00:55:17.000
And I remember thinking, man, she said, like, her husband, her husband came across so smooth, so charming.
00:55:17.000 –> 00:55:20.000
And she came across disorganized.
00:55:20.000 –> 00:55:22.000
And she had a hard time remembering. I remember thinking.
00:55:22.000 –> 00:55:23.000
What the heck is wrong with her? Why can’t…
00:55:23.000 –> 00:55:24.000
Yeah. Yeah.
00:55:24.000 –> 00:55:26.000
Why does she have a problem remembering?
00:55:26.000 –> 00:55:33.000
And it wasn’t only until I went through my own thing, and I realized how emotionally dysregulating, how flooded you get.
00:55:33.000 –> 00:55:34.000
Yeah, that’s right.
00:55:34.000 –> 00:55:35.000
that… that’s what happens.
00:55:35.000 –> 00:55:38.000
That’s right. Yeah.
00:55:38.000 –> 00:55:41.000
Yeah.
00:55:41.000 –> 00:55:42.000
Mm-hmm.
00:55:42.000 –> 00:55:48.000
And so, um, you know, again, that was an eye-opener for me and it, and it wasn’t until I went through my own experience that I was like, wow, so that’s what she was experiencing.
00:55:48.000 –> 00:55:49.000
So…
00:55:49.000 –> 00:55:57.000
Right, right. And I’m so thankful to have this conversation with you, because I know a lot of people.
00:55:57.000 –> 00:55:58.000
Yeah.
00:55:58.000 –> 00:55:59.000
Feel like they get re-harmed when they’re, they’re just trying to make sense of this dynamic and they go to another professional.
00:55:59.000 –> 00:56:03.000
And they’re saying, like, this isn’t what it looks like on the outside.
00:56:03.000 –> 00:56:08.000
And someone that hasn’t had this experience is like, I don’t know, looks like he’s trying now, or looks like she’s showing up now, I’m not sure you are kind of being like everything that they’re saying about you.
00:56:08.000 –> 00:56:12.000
Great.
00:56:12.000 –> 00:56:14.000
And so, thank you for…
00:56:14.000 –> 00:56:19.000
for having these conversations and being aware about it and being committed to
00:56:19.000 –> 00:56:20.000
Talking about it out loud, so, yeah.
00:56:20.000 –> 00:56:24.000
Yeah, no. Thank you for coming on, and…
00:56:24.000 –> 00:56:29.000
And again, I feel like part of helping people with this, right, is peeling off that.
00:56:29.000 –> 00:56:30.000
peeling off that mask, I guess?
00:56:30.000 –> 00:56:31.000
Mm-hmm.
00:56:31.000 –> 00:56:36.000
Um, and again, just telling people, you don’t, you don’t have to be in shame about it.
00:56:36.000 –> 00:56:38.000
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:56:38.000 –> 00:56:39.000
Exactly, yes, thank you.
00:56:39.000 –> 00:56:42.000
Um, thank you so much, Jody, for coming on and talking about this and
00:56:42.000 –> 00:56:49.000
Before we sign off, and it’s been really heavy. Can you tell us a fun fact about yourself that people wouldn’t know?
00:56:49.000 –> 00:56:50.000
Just from looking at you or your website.
00:56:50.000 –> 00:56:54.000
Fun fact, um…
00:56:54.000 –> 00:57:00.000
I usually have a garden project every year that I get really obsessive over.
00:57:00.000 –> 00:57:02.000
And then I’m like, I’m never doing that again.
00:57:02.000 –> 00:57:03.000
Okay.
00:57:03.000 –> 00:57:05.000
Um, and I still kind of have these, like, I grew up
00:57:05.000 –> 00:57:08.000
With my mom canning food and growing all kinds of stuff, and so I have this really
00:57:08.000 –> 00:57:09.000
That’s cool.
00:57:09.000 –> 00:57:13.000
busy life where I’m, like, a professional, and then, like, right now I have
00:57:13.000 –> 00:57:14.000
Three boxes of peaches sitting in my
00:57:14.000 –> 00:57:15.000
Wow.
00:57:15.000 –> 00:57:20.000
In my house, like, looking at me, because I’m gonna can them all, because I learned how to do that, and it’s important.
00:57:20.000 –> 00:57:21.000
And I’m like, who has time to can? But I’m determined to do it.
00:57:21.000 –> 00:57:23.000
Wait, did you grow these peaches? You grew them.
00:57:23.000 –> 00:57:24.000
No, no. Somebody… a peach farmer grew them, yeah.
00:57:24.000 –> 00:57:27.000
Okay. Oh, okay.
00:57:27.000 –> 00:57:32.000
Anyway, usually I’ve got a couple of those things every year where I’m like, why am I doing this? But it makes me happy.
00:57:32.000 –> 00:57:33.000
Yeah. Yep.
00:57:33.000 –> 00:57:36.000
That is so cool! Ooh, I love it!
00:57:36.000 –> 00:57:42.000
Um, uh, thank you so much, Jody, again, and we’ll be sure to have your website.
00:57:42.000 –> 00:57:45.000
When this goes live, so people can get ahold of you.
00:57:45.000 –> 00:57:53.000
to work, and again, contact Jodi Bauer if you’re going through your own high conflict divorce, or even to learn, like, I don’t even know, what is this? What is this that I’m going through?
00:57:53.000 –> 00:57:54.000
Yeah.
00:57:54.000 –> 00:57:56.000
And until then,
00:57:56.000 –> 00:57:59.000
Um, I’m Lani Akiona, and.
00:57:59.000 –> 00:58:06.000
Join us for another episode of Aki on a Law Podcast, wherein we talk about anything and everything that intersects.
00:58:06.000 –> 00:58:11.000
In the areas of family law and divorce, and until the next episode, be well.
00:58:11.000 –> 00:58:14.000
Thank you.